We really are treated as the poor cousin aren't we?

[lukesdad]

Sorry, but this is not quite right. I am involved in a ladies cycling group, we focus on getting more women to cycle for transport. The top impediment is fear of traffic. Even from drivers that would like beginning to cycle to work, the question I get asked first is: "show me a route segregated from motorized traffic"
The second one is: "how do you change a flat?"
Well I remember my first commuting months. I'm not ashamed to say I took to the pavements till I could reach the safety of the cycle path.
When we rode to the Scottish parliament from Glasgow to Edinburgh earlier in the year we had 2 ladies with us, both car drivers (know the rules of the roads), that had never cycled on the road before. They were fine along the early Sunday morning deserted country roads. Once we reached Edinburgh city centre they dismounted, refusing to ride in traffic.
You can actually sense somebody's fear of getting hurt when riding next to them: I would never presume lazy persons feared for their lives.

Sorry but it is

Let me give you my example.I live in carmarthenshire and work mostly in Swansea. Thats a 42 mile ride into work, my end is quiet country roads. From Pembrey to Swansea is cycle path mainly ( there is one brief break but its not busy) through Bury Port and Llanelli, its not rural Wales we re talking about. These are proper designated cycle paths including 10 miles of the millenium path. I can count the number of cyclists I pass on both trips on one hand ! Millions has been spent on these facilities and it has not got people on their bikes. At one end of the millenium path lies Pembrey country park mile opon mile of flat all weather woodland cycling Ideal for family cycling and do you know what .... yes youve guessed it usually empty. On the other side of Swansea its the same at Margam park. Then there are the trail centres Cwmcarn and Afan under used. I took my 8 year old to Brechfa on bank holliday sunday and we rode the red route, havn't done it for a bit and was surprised it had all been upgraded. We only saw one other rider a Kiwi over on hols and he hadn t seen anybody all day " its criminal to have a facility like this and no one using it." were his words. So tell me what is the incentive for Carmarthenshire CC to invest in further cycling projects WHEN NO ONE IS USING THEM.

"I would never presume lazy persons feared for their lives." Thats why they re lazy, They don't.

 

[lukesdad]

People use fear for an excuse for many things, the real fear for them is getting out of their comfort zone.

 

[markharry66]

my local cycle lanes are more dangerous than the pot hole infested roads. They are multi purpose. They double up as great parking spots, extended gardens for hedges, and of course useful fly tipping spots, rubbish dumps. Until you change the attitude towards cycling, get facilities at work that enable people to cycle in (secure cycle racks and enough of them). People are lazy at the end of day. They would rather commute in a box or squashed in a box and pay large amounts of their income to do it. I recently started commuting to Croydon from Sidcup. A weekly ticket not going through London is £22.50 if I go through London its more than double at £48 its crazy

 

[Leodis]

The cycle route I used was always empty of cyclists but full of dog walkers and you stopped every 1/4 mile for anti-motor bike gates, slowing the journey. This same route passes three schools and avoids all major roads but passes on some residential ones as part of the route, do the people who say roads are too dangerous use this route? Not in any particular numbers, the odd one or two over a day from my experience, do the vast majority of cyclists use the main road? Yes they do.

That says to me the money from government is better spent on cycle provisions on the roads.

 

[Boris Bajic]

People use fear for an excuse for many things, the real fear for them is getting out of their comfort zone.

I'm afraid I'm with Pat 8kmh here. It is not usually laziness. There are gazillions of reasons not to cycle... We on this site have simply chosen to ignore or overcome them. Not cycling does not mean (and does not suggest or imply) that the person doing so is lazy.

It may feel lovely and empowering to write things like "the real fear for them is getting out of their comfort zones", but unless you know the circumstances of the person, you might start to sound like a lifestyle guru at a telesales motivational seminar.

I know many, many people who do not (and would not) cycle, but who are fit and healthy, take regular exercise and do many physical activities that cyclists I know simply would not attempt... dig their own gardens, paint the outside of their own houses, put up their own ceilings, change clutches or wheel bearings on their own cars... and others. Some play football, rugby, tennis, squash... but they do not cycle. You don't hear these people saying that others don't do these things because they're lazy.

Fear may be one reason, start-up cost another, fitting it into a routine another, fitting it in with family life another, not knowing where to start, not having the space to store a bike, not knowing how to fix one, not having friends or family who ride...

Most people I know are healthy, active and the antithesis of lazy. Most people I know are not cyclists.

I am a cyclist in part because I was raised to see the bicycle as an obvious answer to many transport questions. Not a hobby or a sport or a leisure activity, just a commonsense response. I hope (one never knows until later) that we've raised our sprogs to think the same thing. Bikes are made available to them and they ride them. lovely!

Many of their friends have not been raised like that. They start (in the terms of cycling) at a disadvantage. That many of them do not cycle is not laziness or fear of leaving their comfort zone.

As the cycling question most often posed to me and our cycling children is about the danger of the local roads, I think Pat 8kmh has a point.

(I have a mother-in-law in Carmarthenshire near Brecon and regularly ride over there with one or another child. Beautiful country for cycling, but you are one of the lucky ones. Some regions are less inviting).

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Use it on the road. I am sure you could adapt cyclecraft.

Slightly OT, I used to see a roller blader gliding through traffic on Hoe Street in Walthamstow. He would wear skin tight lycra body suit which had little leds for use at night. Astonishing.

Ultimately I probably will. There's a couple of hills in Wales I want to bomb. Once da skillz exist to do so.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I know plenty of active, fit, non-risk averse, mountain bikers who, apart from the odd asphalt link/loop on an off-road ride, would rather have root canal work done than cycle on our Sussex roads. They look at me funny when I talk about riding on the roads for fun and as a means to get to work. Lazy they ain't. Terrified of the traffic is what they are.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

And can I say: Salzburg. Sod Holland. Stuff Denmark. The most cycle friendly place in Europe is Salzburg ime.

 

[stowie]

The single best thing that could be done is to introduce the presumption of liability. That's the real key to why cycling on the Continent is so much better.

And for those who bang on about Dutch infrastructure, I'd simply point out that the % of Dutch roads with facilities is actually much smaller than you might think, concentrated on those urban areas that were rebuilt post-war and virtually non-existent in the old streets of places like Amsterdam.

Why would preusumption of liability be so important? It seems a bit of a stretch that a civil presumption of liability for insurance purposes would make drivers change their driving style. After all, drivers already have effective presumption of liability in a rear-end collision, but it doesn't stop them regularly tail-gating. I really don't think that liability is a consideration to drivers when they drive - they assume they aren't going to have an accident in the first place and completely misunderstand their driving ability and the risks anyway.

I agree it is a good thing as it would stop insurance companies taking claimants to court where the burden of proof was on them, but I cannot see how it would suddenly turn the average driver's attitude.

And you are right about Amsterdam - but the road system there has been heavily modified to favour walking and cycling over the car with through traffic limited to certain major through routes (which tend to have segregated cycle provision). I have driven (once) in Amsterdam and the road system off the major arterial routes is certainly not laid out for the driver's convenience. One finds oneself making huge detours to travel small distances as the dutch have decided that removing through traffic from small roads is the way to go.

 

[snorri]

Sorry but it is "I would never presume lazy persons feared for their lives." Thats why they re lazy, They don't.

I could write a paragraph of similar length describing route between two communities on which pedestrian and cycle traffic had fallen to almost zero due to motor traffic making it uncomfortable for vulnerable users. Since the provision of a joint user path alongside the the road the increase in walkers and cyclists has been quite amazing. I seldom pass along that route now without seeing walkers or cyclists, a complete reversal of the situation prior to path construction.

 

[ComedyPilot]

'Build it and they 'will' come.....'

 

[stowie]

They have and they still don't and whilst this pandering continues road cycling becomes more dangerous

What would you do then? What actions do you think need to be taken to make road cycling safer? What do you think would allow more people to cycle? Or does it even matter that most people don't?

 

[Leodis]

What would you do then? What actions do you think need to be taken to make road cycling safer? What do you think would allow more people to cycle? Or does it even matter that most people don't?

More legal protection on the roads i.e. min distance, higher priority and the likes and better on road cycle facilities, this will protect cyclists and rather than remove cyclists from the roads which is what you want, we should engage drivers and make awareness a lot better starting from driving lessons and reintroduce cycle lessons in school.

If you think the whole of the UK is going to get this perfect Dutch style network you are living in cloud cuckoo land, no UK government for the next two generations will invest £1.2b plus a year on cycling, if this does happen I will gladly eat my hat. The best we can do is create a network of safe travel on UK roads for the foreseeable imho.

Don't get me wrong I would love a Dutch style system to encourage cycling but sadly I don't think it will happen any time soon.

 

[Leodis]

[QUOTE 2620954, member: 45"]You're thinking too big. We are getting good networks in areas. As I said, the provision in my town is good. Wide, separate paths alongside roads that I wouldn't be comfortable with a child riding. Sensible routes which follow roads and join up residential areas with shopping areas, schools etc. Any path wide enough for peds to share with cyclists is designated as such. And it works. It's the consideration on the small scale which makes a difference, and talking about required billions of investment isn't helpful because then it's easy to dismiss what's going on currently which works.

And I find that cyclists on the whole are treated much better where I now live compared to the last place I lived in which was Birmingham. The roads are safer and there's less conflict (on and off road). Despite separated provision.[/quote]


That is great, surrounding York has a great network but the roads are excellent too. I do think though investment in road facilities and segregated networks need to go hand in hand.

 

[snorri]

More legal protection on the roads i.e. min distance, higher priority and the likes and better on road cycle facilities, this will protect cyclists

Give us more detail regarding the measures you would propose.