What do we do if cars become environmentally friendly?

[CotterPin]

Even if all the cars on the road began running on fairy dust there would still be a number of social and environmental issues to keep cycle campaigners and others occupied. Someone has already mentioned congestion. We would still have our communities divided by motor vehicles running through the middle of them (although they may be quieter); there would still be a demand to build more roads cutting swathes through the countryside. There is also the issue of road danger. Would there be a reduction in crashes? Also occupants of motor vehicles tend to be divorced from the society around them.
The campaign in my view is to reduce a reliance upon any form of motorised transport and create civilised streets where people can walk, cycle, play, chat - in short to make our streets more social spaces and not the sterilised and soulless places they currently are

 

[dellzeqq]

The car, whatever its power source, is unsustainable as city and urban transport. There simply isn't enough space.

Similarly the car will go on killing our citizens at a rate of thousands a year, whatever the power source.

that's about it.........not, mind you that we don't have an interest in individual cars being less polluting.

 

[jonesy]

Others have said it all really, assuming "environmentally friendly" cars means zero emission over the entire life cycle, there are still plenty of other reasons for controlling and reducing their use. Indeed, CO2 emissions are not, and never have been, a particularly strong argument for modal shift from car to bicycle, because the majority of emissions from cars is produced from trips that are signficantly longer than those typically made by bicycle, so modal shift has limited potential to reduce them. Let's focus on quality of life, safety, creating a street environment to suit people not machines, equitable and efficient use of limited road space etc.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Others have said it all really, assuming "environmentally friendly" cars means zero emission over the entire life cycle, there are still plenty of other reasons for controlling and reducing their use. Indeed, CO2 emissions are not, and never have been, a particularly strong argument for modal shift from car to bicycle, because the majority of emissions from cars is produced from trips that are signficantly longer than those typically made by bicycle, so modal shift has limited potential to reduce them. Let's focus on quality of life, safety, creating a street environment to suit people not machines, equitable and efficient use of limited road space etc.

Ah, you mean behaving in a civilised manner? Chortle. (This week of all weeks) ;-)

 

[al78]

How so, in both cases?

Pollution concentrated at one source means focusing efforts at one place, not thousands of places.

Technologies for clean electricity generation exist now and are used, energy dense liguid alternatives to oil for motor transport do not.

 

[colly]

I sometimes wonder what the percentage of GDP of developed nations is spent on 'cars' and the infrastructure that goes to support them.

Take into account, the amount of people engaged in the motor industry directly, the construction and maintenance of the roads, bridges, servicing and repairs, garages, fuel depots, insurance, tyres, steel making, transport of all the stuff to do with motor cars, people engaged in government to legislate for it all. Even down to road signs/ furniture and white lines on the roads.

Even if motor vehicles were really 100% non polluting their omnipresence clogging up the place would still be an issue.
I sometimes sit at a set of lights in my van waiting for 'my' turn to go and think of all the other cars, vans and trucks backed up away from the lights in every direction, of all the sets of lights all over the city, in every city in the country, in every country across the world. All waiting to go nowhere. It's kind of depressing.

Depressing because as we have organised things at present there is no real alternative. Another way of running things would take a generation, probably more than one generation to bring about. Resistance to that would be immense and people being people would just stick their heads in the sand and carry on carrying on.

I can't see cars and car culture ending any time soon.

The motor vehicle is a wonderful device giving freedom to millions and opening up opportunities otherwise denied but their very success may also their be their/our downfall.

Edit:
Just to add: Am I any different to all the other millions? No not really. I need a vehicle to transport my work. I couldn't do it with out one even though I use it as little as possible I do still use it for 'amusement' as it were.

We're doomed, doomed I tell you.

 

[BSRU]

I'm in favour of towns and cities having car parking priced to deter use, no on-street parking, massive taxes on private parking spaces, and a tow away and crush policy for illegally parked cars. Don't think it'll be a vote winner though, neither would a road toll scheme designed to deter car use. It's motorised private passenger transport that needs to go.

Swindon council tried that and reversed it very quickly, turns out people just drive to the out of town shopping centres or other towns/cities meaning local traders, business rates payers, suffered.

 

[Dan B]

And yet it works for London: demand for car parking car outstrips availability, even at silly prices, and the traffic wardens are all paid piecerate. People would mostly still rather get the tube or bus into town than go to an out-of-town centre.
I'm tempted to suggest that the problem there is nobody really wants to go to Swindon in the first place, but I suspect the real issue is that once you have a car which you need to use for the first 80% of the journey (getting to the town centre) you really want to do the whole journey in it instead of dumping it in a car park and making the final couple of miles by bike/public transport. In London you're less likely to be starting out by car in the first place

 

[downfader]

I sometimes wonder what the percentage of GDP of developed nations is spent on 'cars' and the infrastructure that goes to support them.

Take into account, the amount of people engaged in the motor industry directly, the construction and maintenance of the roads, bridges, servicing and repairs, garages, fuel depots, insurance, tyres, steel making, transport of all the stuff to do with motor cars, people engaged in government to legislate for it all. Even down to road signs/ furniture and white lines on the roads.

Even if motor vehicles were really 100% non polluting their omnipresence clogging up the place would still be an issue.
I sometimes sit at a set of lights in my van waiting for 'my' turn to go and think of all the other cars, vans and trucks backed up away from the lights in every direction, of all the sets of lights all over the city, in every city in the country, in every country across the world. All waiting to go nowhere. It's kind of depressing.

Depressing because as we have organised things at present there is no real alternative. Another way of running things would take a generation, probably more than one generation to bring about. Resistance to that would be immense and people being people would just stick their heads in the sand and carry on carrying on.

I can't see cars and car culture ending any time soon.

The motor vehicle is a wonderful device giving freedom to millions and opening up opportunities otherwise denied but their very success may also their be their/our downfall.

Edit:
Just to add: Am I any different to all the other millions? No not really. I need a vehicle to transport my work. I couldn't do it with out one even though I use it as little as possible I do still use it for 'amusement' as it were.

We're doomed, doomed I tell you.

I think what the motor vehicle has brought has been the ability for the small haulier and the small trader to definately carry goods and services a considerable distance. Before they were limited to the rail network, or horse or cycle use which may not have been as ideal.

I still rely on cars, despite not a driver. Most trips I can do on a bicycle, but shopping still eludes me and I will hitch a lift with relatives for bulky or numerous items. Have been tempted to invest in a trailer or build one and see how shopping goes with that... but lazyness and other interests have put pay to that.

 

[asterix]

Last night, at about 23 o'clock CET I passed 4 cars on the side of the A20 (France). The first, a black one was smashed in at the front, a silver car had flipped over the crash barrier and was on its roof, the other 2, white or silver were both facing the wrong way. Someone was wandering around aimlessly whilst someone else was walking up the road for some reason wearing a high vis jacket. No sign of the emergency services at that point.

About 3 km later there was another group of cars in trouble, including one towing a trailer. Almost certainly a collision of some kind.

Slightly earlier I had been passed by cars, including a black merc, doing up to 60 mph more than I was (say 140 mph). After the scenes not a single car passed me for at least another 30 km, probably because they closed the road.

Cars are the most extreme example of humans being allowed to operate dangerous machinery when really a large proportion of them simply shouldn't be.

 

[colly]

Cars are the most extreme example of humans being allowed to operate dangerous machinery when really a large proportion of them simply shouldn't be.

Agree totally !! Bicycles are not so extreme but dear God have you seen all those lycra louts whizzing about???

BAN THEM ALL I say.

 

[Davidc]

Swindon council tried that and reversed it very quickly, turns out people just drive to the out of town shopping centres or other towns/cities meaning local traders, business rates payers, suffered.

As I said in my post, it needs very high taxes per space in the car parks. Out of town stores would have to put on busses if the tax per space were to be high enough.

I know it's not a vote winner so won't happen, but it would be possible to achieve it. Think of the value of all that space as trading floor!

The problem is the private car. If we could move back away from it all the 'difficulties' would evaporate as efficient alternatives took over.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Where does the power station get the hydrogen from?

Sea water I believe.

 

[Dan B]

But what do they use to get the hydrogen from the sea water?

A very small hammer

 

[downfader]

But what do they use to get the hydrogen from the sea water?

The construct of the fuel cell splits the H from the O. It then goes through a separate process through a "filter" to make the H electron travel a "long way around" that generates electricty. There was a couple of articles on this in New Scientist, The Guardian's enviro blog iirc and wikipedia.

Geothermal is a valid alternative to fuel cell powerstations given the oil drilling technology we now have. If proper investment is made we could have Geothermal up and running on a substantial scale in 5 years.