Why do people get such strong feelings over electric cars and solar panels etc.

[Ming the Merciless]

It's really astonishing how well engineered these panels must be to cope with such extremes of temperature and the expansion / contraction rates of the different materials.

Satellites use solar panels and they survive pretty hostile conditions.

 

[Tenkaykev]

Satellites use solar panels and they survive pretty hostile conditions.

They certainly do! It might be a tad expensive but having seen them rolling out the new panels over the existing ones on the Space Station I thought they'd make excellent dual purpose roller blinds for above the patio 🤔😁

 

[FishFright]

I think the biggest problem facing any alternative power sources is that too many people seem to believe we can just carry on doing what we do now because it suits their current work or lifestyles.

Unless the majority embrace the need to change we'll probably end up in a cul-de-sac of worn out supply side and inadequate variety of consumption methods to spread the load.

Less car sized vehicles is the on the roads is probably the only way out of the current hole but the least likely to happen.

 

[wiggydiggy]

......an emergency trombone repair......

I really want to know under what circumstance any trombone repair is an emergency!😂

 

[gbb]

Gutted I missed out on solar panels, my fault, I had a good deal and cogitated too much, but it does occur to me...the council fitted them to all their stock around us and even after just 5 years, the algae on them really must limit their performance. I'd be looking at how you can clean them were they mine. I might post photos, too dark now but it's quite shocking and obvious ( to me at least)

 

[tyred]

I really want to know under what circumstance any trombone repair is an emergency!😂

I'd imagine a professional musician about to go on stage would consider it an emergency.

 

[Gillstay]

Initial cost. Almost everyone at some stage is going to have to finance a huge lump of money they would never have had to.
Possible long term costs as batteries fail and then the car becomes a useless lump of steel and plastic.
None of these questions have been answered in a comprehensive way, let alone ones I havnt thought of.

Equally, you have to concede, one of the problems is that ICE cars work SO well for people, that's actually part of the problem.

You have come up with some of the comments I frequently get and which I find odd.

For instance the huge lump of money is not needed, we can buy a second hand Leaf for £6,000.

People run model T's and other veteran cars, so why would electric cars become useless.

Yet if i try to explain the above points the conversation stops or people get angry.

And yet I bet they all accepted at some point an electric watch...........and many other items that went from mechanical to electric.

 

[Gillstay]

People only like 'selective' change. If it boosts their ego / perceived standing in life, they're all for it. Otherwise, they're dyed in the wool traditionalists.

Sadly I think you may be right for a good few people I have spoken too.

Being a traditionalist is quite a tricky position to stick with esp once you start reading.

 

[Time Waster]

Of power supply for EVs isn't an issue if we all switched to them quickly, what if we all went to air source heat pumps or other electric heating instead of GCH? Plus industrial use and agricultural use. It all combines and whilst looking at just one switch from fossil fuels to electric might not be an issue has that determination looked at all the new uses of electricity?

I've no idea but I do know that I do not believe there's enough charging points in public places. Not round here. Then at places with big workforce and company carparks you often see cars parked in eV points all day. At least it's not as bad as usa where there's such a thing as ICEing. That's where anti eV people park their ICE truck in eV charging points. At least part of the time those uk EVs are parked at charging points they're charging, just not the whole day.

 

[Time Waster]

I do think people putting it down as not liking change are as rabid as those being criticised by the op. Polar opposite groups are often as bad as each other. Personally those who look more critically tend to be in the middle ground. They see the advantages and disadvantages of EVs. There's no such thing as perfection in technology. None do exactly as claimed.

 

[wafter]

I see it's the same old tropes...
EV batteries need replacing after 5-10 years. No they don't, they're guaranteed for 8 years. And they gradually decline. They don't get to 10 years old and explode /suddenly die.

As you suggest they slowly degrade, meaning over their lifetime they give ever-reducing range and require more frequent charging. Nowhere in this thread has it been suggested that they explode; although now you mention it there are plenty of videos on Youtube of EVs spontaneously bursting into flames...

There's an interesting breakdown on the degradation of the Nissan Leaf battery here; taken from aggregated real-world data. Cutting straight to the chase, about a third down the page is a table of mileage versus range. By 55k miles the table suggests a typical battery will have lost around 1/3rd of its charge capacity / range. In a world where 100k miles on a decent IC car is no big thing, a 100k mile leaf is unlikey to get you very far; while the cost of a replacement battery (best I could find online with a quick search) is £5k. By the time the car's covered 100k miles, is that going to be a justifiable cost?

I understand that there's a huge range of tastes and budgets in this sector, and I'm right at the bottom. However, with the cost of living crisis only getting worse - where would someone who now runs a 100k mile+, £500 beater on a total annual budget of maybe £1-1.5k find themselves in the new shiny world of EVs, if they were the only choice? Walking (or cycling ) would be my guess.

Mining. Because oil drilling never hurt anyone.

That kind of proves my point - EVs are sold on their environmental credentials; when really we're just exchanging one unsustainable evil for another - while at the same time lining the pockets of the man and screwing our own future.

If we all had EVs then UK power consumption would go up BY OVER 1%!! Oh, the humanity...

Given how much energy it takes to accelerate / push through the air a large, 2 ton metal box / that really doesn't sound correct... and indeed according to this source (near the bottom and full disclosure I've only skimmed it as I have the attention span of a potato) it isn't:

Another of the sensitivities – missed by the newspaper headline writers – is called “High EV”, and tests the impact of even faster and wider adoption of the technology. It sees all 35m cars in the UK becoming electric in 2050, with a limited spread of autonomous vehicles and an unmanaged grid, where most consumers charge up at similar times.

In this worst-case scenario, peak EV electricity demand could reach 30GW, far more than the 18GW highlighted in the press. This is equivalent to half of current peak demand on the GB grid.

For instance the huge lump of money is not needed, we can buy a second hand Leaf for £6,000.

How does that work for those of us who typically spend a grand or less on a car? What sort of mileage / battery degradation are we talking at that price point? How long is that vehicle's viable service life compared to an IC equivalent? What about the energy and material costs of production and disposal?

People run model T's and other veteran cars, so why would electric cars become useless.

Because "veteran cars" are basic, easily user-serviceable mechanical vehicles with a raft of low-cost spares availability.

Electric vehicles are none of these things; just like most modern consumer goods (posh IC vehicles included) every available measure has been taken to disempower the consumer; making them as reliant as possible on specialised tertiary services to sustain the ever-decreasing lifespan of their chosen product.

EVs have crossed the transport rubicon from relatively long-lived mechanical products to "tech". How many people do you know running a 5+ year old phone, or repairing / maintaining their own electronic items when the built-in-obsolescence comes snapping at their heels; demanding that they stuff their old device down the gullet of a dolphin and replace it with a new shiny alternative?

And yet I bet they all accepted at some point an electric watch...........and many other items that went from mechanical to electric.

That's a bizarre analogy though, is it not? It's not a case of "electric bad, mechanical good" across all possible products and markets, it's a case of suitabilty and viability for the application in hand.

Nuclear arguably works well for satellites, power stations and fighty submarines,.. not so much for your central heating. Diesel is well-suited to freight trains and haulage; less-so your toaster. Electric's great for your microwave; maybe not as viable for passenger air travel. Human power is great for perambulating yourself around the countryside on a two-wheeled escape machine, although I have my doubts about my personal ability to power my cooker.


Everyone has their own agenda that defines their opinion; mine is simply to be evidence-led and choose the best option for myself and the planet.. and as far as EVs go I'm yet to be convinced.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Human power is great for perambulating yourself around the countryside on a two-wheeled escape machine, although I have my doubts about my personal ability to power my cooker.

I think a slow cooker should be manageable. I think they are about 100-200 watts. Although you'd probably be advised to cook highly calorific stews as you'd be quite hungry after all those hours pedalling.

 

[johnblack]

I don't think I know anyone that really gives either solar panels or electric cars a second thought, if conversation came round to either I'd hope it would quickly move on.

 

[cougie uk]

I think the biggest problem facing any alternative power sources is that too many people seem to believe we can just carry on doing what we do now because it suits their current work or lifestyles.

Unless the majority embrace the need to change we'll probably end up in a cul-de-sac of worn out supply side and inadequate variety of consumption methods to spread the load.

Less car sized vehicles is the on the roads is probably the only way out of the current hole but the least likely to happen.

I think cost of living and councils/governments cracking down on cars is starting to make a difference.
It was cheap running a car when I was younger - now it's a huge expense on top of everything else.
No point taking a car into city centres any more - public transport and cycling or scooters are a lot cheaper and sometimes even faster.

 

[Alex321]

Don’t confuse people ‘not liking change’ with people ‘seeing the emperor is naked’.
Imagine the UK cars changed to ev’s. 30 million ev’s needing 12 kWh per day (about the same usage as a 4 bed house) to charge. 360 million kWh per day, 360 mWh, .36 gWh, over 1% of the UK daily production of 27 gWh. Are we going to double the number of hydro electric plants, or double the number of coal plants, to supply this?

Well as others have said, everybody isn't going to switch overnight. And also, EVs will not need an average of 12kWh per day, that is only what they will need if they have been fuly discharged, and most will only very rarely be driven that far.

I will be surprised if the average per vehicle is as much as half of that.

National Grid reckon they have the capacity in place already to cope with it - remembering that the majority of charging will be done during what are currently off-peak, low demand periods.