BentMikey
Rider of Seolferwulf
- Location
- South London
I think we're a very long way from this point, even with a Lupine Betty 14.
Will lights be limited?
- Thread starter magnatom
- Start date
Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.
I think we're a very long way from this point, even with a Lupine Betty 14.
I use a Betty (1500 lumen version) for road riding at night. The country lanes around my bit of Hampshire are cycling heaven in many ways, but they can get very dark away from the (literally, certainly not metaphorically) bright lights of Southampton. Add to that the sometimes marginal road surfaces, overhanging trees, suicidal deer and short but speedy descents and a decent set of lights is a must. The Bettys are overkill in some ways, but having that amount of light means you're not squinting into the distance looking for the next hazard.
When I'm riding, I treat the lights like I would full beam on a car and 'dip' them if there is anyone else on the road (lower the setting and/or nudge the beam down - the rubber strap mount makes this very easy to do). That includes other cyclists and peds as well as cars. Of course, if the driver doesn't feel the need to dip back, then I'll let them know......
The Bettys aren't ideal for road riding though as the beam is a little wide. Personally, I like to see what's lurking at the side of the road, but some of the beam does get wasted. I've recently started running the Betty in combo with an Exposure Diablo. This means I can just flick the Betty off if someone is approaching (the Betty switch cycles through the power settings a little quickly) and still have enough light to see and be seen. Both on full power gives about 2250 lumens, which is just silly. I don't think I've ever used them like this.
When I'm riding, I treat the lights like I would full beam on a car and 'dip' them if there is anyone else on the road (lower the setting and/or nudge the beam down - the rubber strap mount makes this very easy to do). That includes other cyclists and peds as well as cars. Of course, if the driver doesn't feel the need to dip back, then I'll let them know......
The Bettys aren't ideal for road riding though as the beam is a little wide. Personally, I like to see what's lurking at the side of the road, but some of the beam does get wasted. I've recently started running the Betty in combo with an Exposure Diablo. This means I can just flick the Betty off if someone is approaching (the Betty switch cycles through the power settings a little quickly) and still have enough light to see and be seen. Both on full power gives about 2250 lumens, which is just silly. I don't think I've ever used them like this.
BentMikey
Rider of Seolferwulf
- Location
- South London
Bollo, you rock!! Hi 5!!!
I'm not sure why you say this after what I just said?
"Blinded driver"? - please don't exaggerate.The light output of the E3 Triple is still negligible compared to car headlights, particularly the newer HID style lights. I use these lights to see the road in front of me, as not all my commuting route is well lit. I also have them angled down slightly, to illuminate the road in front of me.
I don't know why some motorists are flashing their lights at me, but if it's a comment on the brightness of my headlights, then they're guilty of being hypocrites.
Furthermore, the "illegal light" defense wouldn't work, as these lights aren't illegal in Australia, and I don't see why they should be, since as I mentioned above, they're still only about 500 lumens, with lenses that spread the light, not concentrate it in a narrow beam.
Maybe I misunderstood your post. I assumed that you believed that oncoming drivers flashed you because of your lights. If it's for some other reason, then not relevant to this thread.
Dazzling (=temporarily blinding) someone isn't justified just because someone else once dazzled you. If they are dazzled, they may not even know what type of bike/vehicle you are.
The supernova website gives no data on beam pattern or intensity, so it's impossible to say what the off-axis intensity of your light is without measuring it, but if not controlled like a car headlamp, it's probably a lot brighter than a dipped beam.
A simple way of checking whether it's too bright off-axis for oncoming vehicles would be to cycle along a dark & not too busy road & see if many oncoming drivers flash at you - that would be a good indicator that it needs adjusting. A simple baffle taped to one side might help.
500lm is comparable to a car headlamp, so definitely not 'only'. You need to be carefull to avoid illuminating the other side of the road, just as car headlamp optics are designed to do. It doesn't need much intensity to dazzle someone at night, and the effect can last for some time afterwards.
A high end bike light is strong enough to dazzle and I think you have to be responsible when using them. Without dredging up some solid angle calculations to prove/disprove, I find my Diablo (6deg beam angle and 720lumens from a single LED) more dazzling than the Betty (1500lumens over 7 LEDS with a 13deg beam angle) if you look at them head on.
If I come up to somebody that insists on keeping their full beam on then I hold the button to cycle through the power settings (in my case 5%,60%,100%) to 'flash' them. Nearly always works.
If I come up to somebody that insists on keeping their full beam on then I hold the button to cycle through the power settings (in my case 5%,60%,100%) to 'flash' them. Nearly always works.
Which I think was the point of the OP. If people can't be responsible, the alternative is legislation.
This isn't about total power. Even relatively low power LEDs can dazzle, because the emitting area is so small compared with an incandescent lamp, but the higher power means it can dazzle over a wide angle with a greater dwell time even without being aimed deliberately.
The ability to thoroughly out-shine errant motoists (and even errant cyclists) is A Good Thing
, but not to be abused.If there's legislation, I'd rather it was on the 'use it properly' side than actually limiting the capabilities of the lights. Simply imposing a blanket limit on lumens is a very crude stick that doesn't consider all the other aspects that make a light dazzling. Isn't this how it's done for motors, so why should we be different? Are we somehow less grown-up for riding a bike?
I may be wrong, but I don't think there's any blanket limit on total power in lumens, & I didn't take the OP to mean such a limit- only that the power now available makes legislation more likely.
Both motor & cycle legislation is concerned about maximum (no limit for cycles) and minimum luminous intensity (ie candela) measured at defined horizontal & vertical angles and placement of individual lights.
I don't think we have anything to fear from a total lumen limit specifically for pedal cycles (although the 'They're all bastards' philosophy may suggest otherwise), but can the current BS6102 or equivalent be considered adequate when a bike light can easily be more powerful than many car headlamps?
In this country I don't think there is a limit. In Germany I think there is a limit around the 300 lumen mark, but I can't find a specific reference. Lupine are a German company and I've a memory that the documentation said that the Betty was specifically for off-road use and would be illegal on German roads.
Cycle lighting/reflectives/bells legislation in this country is a joke anyway and shockingly out of date. I'd be happy with a sensible upgrade to the law (for example, to allow clipless pedals without reflectors) but it's more likely to be a Daily Wail inspired 'Cyclists give you cancer' kneejerk response.
Davidc
Guru
- Location
- Somerset UK
B&M lights all have instructions with them to tell the owner how to set them up, and because they have to meet the German approvals that setup means they won't dazzle other road users.
If enough people cause problems that's presumably where we'll end up - only approved standard lights alowed and then only when fitted according to the manufacturers instructions.
I don't fancy that, so hope it never happens.
If enough people cause problems that's presumably where we'll end up - only approved standard lights alowed and then only when fitted according to the manufacturers instructions.
I don't fancy that, so hope it never happens.
This was part of the reason for asking the question, because I know of the German legislation. Of course legislation doesn't have to be lumens, etc, but I just suspect that due to the perception of a lights arms race that some 'bright spark' will come up with the idea of legislation.
I have a B&M Ixon IQ. It has two settings. One is within the required legislation, one is above.
Davidc
Guru
- Location
- Somerset UK
Presumably if you are in Germany you're expected to only use the approed one? I remember there were some comments about what you had to do with the CYO if you were in Germany to comply with the rules.
The Germans would probably lock me up for using the 170 lm torch + lockblock I sometimes use at night!
Aye, I think that is how it works. I'm don't have any lumens figures handy, but the low setting is 10 lux and the high setting is 40 lux (which I think is about 200 lumen). I assume the high setting is for offroad?!?
