Winter Strength training

[Dusty Bin]

If someone undertakes a physical activity say for example weight training, are you saying they only gain fitness and not strength?

Sorry - just to be clear, in case there was any doubt - I'm talking about cycling. You know - cycling forum n all that...

 

[50000tears]

It's quite possible that you could bench press a bigger weight than me - right now. How would you explain that?

Well that is randomly irrelevant, don't see how an upper body exercise bears any relation the point in discussion. I would add though that even if I could squat or leg press a bigger weight than you would that would be irrelevant too. The basic fact is that when you cycle you use certain muscles in certain ways and that is where they are forced to become stronger when put under strain. It is your bodies way of dealing with the demands we place on it.

To be clear we are separated in viewpoint here by the finest of margins. Cycling is without doubt for the vast majority of the time an aerobic activity and that is where every cyclist should aim most of their efforts in improving, but strength is not the irrelevant bystander you try to paint it as.

 

[50000tears]

That's anecdote. If you are going to start quoting sources, then you need to do your research first. If you did, you would see that the evidence for 'core strength' is equivocal at best. Obviously, if your core is deficient in some way, then strengthening it would be beneficial - but for those whose core is already 'normal', then benefits of core work are at best unproven, as far as I can tell. It's a great sales pitch at the gym though...

OK just to flip this over. You keep asking for evidence and then dismissing all that is presented. Can you produce a shred of evidence that strength plays no part in cycling? You said earlier that you are open minded but are proving to be anything but.

 

[Dusty Bin]

Well that is randomly irrelevant, don't see how an upper body exercise bears any relation the point in discussion. I would add though that even if I could squat or leg press a bigger weight than you would that would be irrelevant too. The basic fact is that when you cycle you use certain muscles in certain ways and that is where they are forced to become stronger when put under strain. It is your bodies way of dealing with the demands we place on it.

To be clear we are separated in viewpoint here by the finest of margins. Cycling is without doubt for the vast majority of the time an aerobic activity and that is where every cyclist should aim most of their efforts in improving, but strength is not the irrelevant bystander you try to paint it as.

Sorry, I meant leg press. Like I say, I know nothing about weights.

 

[Dusty Bin]

OK just to flip this over. You keep asking for evidence and then dismissing all that is presented. Can you produce a shred of evidence that strength plays no part in cycling? You said earlier that you are open minded but are proving to be anything but.

I've already said that the average forces through the legs in a typical TdF mountain stage are something like 25kg - or around 12.5kg through each leg. That is significantly less than the amount that most untrained individuals could already leg press and massively less than the amount of weight that we can already support if we hopped on one leg, walked upstairs, or got up out of a chair. So you tell me - how will having stronger legs than we already have help us to perform better as cyclists?

Being open-minded is not the same as agreeing with you, by the way.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

 

[Doyleyburger]

The OP would have to clarify that, but I took it to mean 'gyming to improve power'. Unfortunately, as is so often the case, the OP posts once and is then never seen again.

The OP is probably sitting back watching all this unfold and thinking wtf have I just started. This thread is compelling to say the least.
Brilliant !

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

So you tell me - how will having stronger legs than we already have help us to perform better as cyclists?

We already have? A bit broad isn't it? We do not all share the same leg strength.

That's anecdote. If you are going to start quoting sources, then you need to do your research first. If you did, you would see that the evidence for 'core strength' is equivocal at best. Obviously, if your core is deficient in some way, then strengthening it would be beneficial - but for those whose core is already 'normal', then benefits of core work are at best unproven, as far as I can tell. It's a great sales pitch at the gym though...

Anecdotal? From someone slightly more qualified on the subject than you. Could we at least pretend that he has a degree in sport science and works in one of the highest positions in the sport, for one of the top teams in Europe? From there can we deduce that his opinion is worth more than nothing? Can we also assume that some of his opinions are based on research and not rumour or hearsay?

Of course fatigue would affect it. But 'strengthening' your core will not help much. Aerobic conditioning, however, will. Suprised you can't see that. It's a bit like saying that the best solution for leg fatigue is stronger legs - which of course, it isn't.

Your core is not an area, in cycling, that is used in an aerobic capacity! It is used for stability, hence the need to strengthen. Can't believe you don't "see" that.

Fitness is generally a by-product of physical activity - not strength. If you say it's not possible, then you clearly don't understand the adaptions that are taking place.

Think you have misunderstood. I stated that strength increases with resistance training - which cycling is.

 

[50000tears]

I've already said that the average forces through the legs in a typical TdF mountain stage are something like 25kg - or around 12.5kg through each leg. That is significantly less than the amount that most untrained individuals could already leg press and massively less than the amount of weight that we can already support if we hopped on one leg, walked upstairs, or got up out of a chair. So you tell me - how will having stronger legs than we already have help us to perform better as cyclists?

Ah I understand now where your confusion is now based. You have simplified this down to the fact that you need X amount of strength to climb a mountain, we already have more strength than that therefore everything else must be aerobic.

This however just not deal with basic human physiology and how it reacts to certain stimulus. To simplify when you put your body through the stress of cycling, uphill in this example, you body adapts to the stimulus by becoming better able to complete the task it was set. This is largely aerobic but it also strengthens the legs in order to make the task easier next time.

To play devils advocate why do we improve aerobically? Why has my 1 hour mph figure got better in the last month? I could already cycle aerobically for that hour so why did my body feel the need to improve me further? It is my body making the task easier. When I cycle my body wants to make it hurt less next time, the fact that I already had the strength to climb that hill or the aerobic capacity to cycle hard for an hour does not mean I stop improving in either area.

 

[Dusty Bin]

We already have? A bit broad isn't it? We do not all share the same leg strength.

Obviously, if you weigh less than 25kg and you are unable to lift your own bodyweight, then cycling is probably not your number 1 problem.

Anecdotal? From someone slightly more qualified on the subject than you. Could we at least pretend that he has a degree in sport science and works in one of the highest positions in the sport, for one of the top teams in Europe? From there can we deduce that his opinion is worth more than nothing? Can we also assume that some of his opinions are based on research and not rumour or hearsay?

Is this the same guy that says 'a solid core is important, but only up to a point?' Dunno - you'd have to ask him. I can only go with what I know and the info that is already out there. If he knows better, then get him on here. it's well known that Wiggins did some core/upper body work after his collarbone break though - which is not unreasonable.

Your core is not an area, in cycling, that is used in an aerobic capacity! It is used for stability, hence the need to strengthen. Can't believe you don't "see" that.

Your 'core' is a group of muscles which respond to aerobic input and stimulus in exactly the same way as any other muscle group.

Think you have misunderstood. I stated that strength increases with resistance training - which cycling is.

Strength does indeed increase with resistance training - but cycling really isn't a resistance-based activity in the sense that you think it is. The forces involved are way too low.

 

[Dusty Bin]

Ah I understand now where your confusion is now based. You have simplified this down to the fact that you need X amount of strength to climb a mountain, we already have more strength than that therefore everything else must be aerobic.

My confusion..??

This however just not deal with basic human physiology and how it reacts to certain stimulus. To simplify when you put your body through the stress of cycling, uphill in this example, you body adapts to the stimulus by becoming better able to complete the task it was set. This is largely aerobic but it also strengthens the legs in order to make the task easier next time.

Explain to me why you think increased leg strength is the product of a low-impact aerobic activity?

To play devils advocate why do we improve aerobically? Why has my 1 hour mph figure got better in the last month? I could already cycle aerobically for that hour so why did my body feel the need to improve me further? It is my body making the task easier. When I cycle my body wants to make it hurt less next time, the fact that I already had the strength to climb that hill or the aerobic capacity to cycle hard for an hour does not mean I stop improving in either area.

Most likely because you have not been cycling long and you are still some way off achieving your optimum potential in relation to the type and intensity of your riding. My fitness is still improving and I've been riding for 20+ years. However, I'm fairly certain that I'm no stronger now than when I started.

 

[madpensioner]

So you start out by patronising anyone who asked you a question - and you finish up by agreeing with everyone. I can't wait to get to your age, it's gonna be awesome.

It is evident from your behavior that you are not my age - its a pity you did not respond like Michaelcycle when i made my initial contribution - did you notice how constructive he was
- remember for every action in life there is an equal and opposite reaction

 

[madpensioner]

I love these threads. They never fail to amuse.

IMO there are two sides to the argument but for some reason neither party concedes this. One is right, not both.

Well IMO both are correct.
Cycling alone will not provide the best possible core from which the power will ultimately derive from. Core specific training is not done on the bike. Core training is widely known to aid power transfer and cycling efficiency, not to mention helping the ability to endure serious time in the saddle.
One could also argue, though not proven that i am aware of, that a cyclist can only train the muscles directly related to cycling. The result being that the cyclist is prone to muscle imbalance and/or future injuries that might otherwise be avoidable with a more rounded training program. Some cyclists add running etc to their training to prevent bones becoming brittle and have a more general fitness rather than cycling specific. Specific stretching also can be applied to ones training. Little of the above is "weight training" but it is not just "riding a bike" either.

End of the day though one could manage to become a very good cyclist just through cycling alone, with not one other bit of training at all. I don't think that person would be reaching their potential as an injury free cyclist or even utilising their power most efficiently, but that's just my opinion. It just happens to be fortunate for me that it also happens to be the similar view of the "strength and conditioning" GB cycling coach. The same guy who has all the cyclists in team GB partake in core strength training and adding dreaded "weights" to their schedule. Not just the track guys either.

FWIW, i ONLY do core training and do not subscribe to the view that weight training your legs will make you a better/faster cyclist. It MAY, i speculate, help to better balance muscle groups, if done correctly, but i do not personally find this a worthwhile or desirable end product.

You have taken the words out of mouth - cheers

 

[bianchi1]

I can't believe this is still going

Nice quote from that 'ok' cyclist mark cavendish. Looks like even he hits the gym..

"I don’t do a lot of cross-training as such. I do core work for the supportive strength I can’t get from pushing the pedals round, and just a bit of upper body training in the gym"

 

[madpensioner]

The confidence with which you write your posts is quite striking. I won't judge right or wrong but you seem to leave no room for error, further learning or differing opinion. I could ask, for example, if you believe that cyclist A is a skinny 21 year old who can leg press 20kg's once before cycling. Cyclist A then does everything exactly the same for 6 months except for cycle 5 hours a week for 6 months. Are you suggesting cyclist A can still only leg press exactly 20kg's??


That's not the point. The point is that the power produced comes from the core, hence strengthening this area will effect every single aspect of cycling - position, endurance, power, handling, climbing, sprinting etc etc. To strengthen this area purely by cycling alone would see a rider with poor core muscles take much longer to improve than someone who concentrated more specifically on the area. Strengthen ones weaknesses as it were.

brilliant !!!

 

[solidthegreat]

The OP is probably sitting back watching all this unfold and thinking wtf have I just started. This thread is compelling to say the least.
Brilliant !

Lol, I feel like I have started world war 3!!! I simply wanted to know if doing weights twice a week would benefit my cycling in general. I am riding paris Roubaix in April. I know the pros complete miles and miles in the saddle, but I also know they do weight sessions from reading media, but to what level I have no idea. I don't want legs like Chris Hoy, but Cancellara's would suffice.