links not working for me
21/10/13 - female cyclist down in Camden - Tipper lorry
- Thread starter Beebo
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deptfordmarmoset
Full time tea drinker
- Location
- Armonmy Way
It just did for me. I wonder whether you have to have your machine enabled to use Google Drive (which is where the spreadsheet I found is).
EDIT: It's also embedded in his blog: http://cycling-intelligence.com/fatal-cycling-accidents-in-london/ but you need to do a bit more scrolling around because it's a small window.
If you want, I can save a version and then forward it to you in a format that your spreadsheet program can open. PM me, tell me if you have Excel or summat else, if so.
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I've read it. There's a lot of lorries involved! Doesn't say whether the cyclist rode up the side or not but as most of the debate on here is about exactly that, what is your point?
The point is that most of the debate is a waste of time, as long as it is about the behaviour of the victims, and not about the behaviour of those who are doing the killing.
[QUOTE 2731068, member: 30090"]Bus drivers undergo the same training as lorry drivers...in terms of driver CPC and practical training.
Compare the amount of windows on a bus to a truck, and the height of the cab...lot easier to see.[/quote]
Bus drivers in London get training that is specific to bicycles, and that's backed up by a policy that says that they shouldn't put us in harms way. Some HGV drivers (mostly those working for local authorities) get the same training. Some construction firms have their own training schemes - the shining example being Cemex.
Now, as it goes I had to stand at the front of the bus all the way from Borough High Street to Brixton the other day. The care taken by the driver was extraordinary - he looked at the mirrors on both sides every few seconds. I don't think that happens by accident. I don't think the Cemex drivers take care by accident, or, even the Asda drivers that pass the FNRttC on the way out to the Dartford Crossing. Someone has taken the time to say 'this is what you have to look out for'.
Compare the amount of windows on a bus to a truck, and the height of the cab...lot easier to see.[/quote]
Bus drivers in London get training that is specific to bicycles, and that's backed up by a policy that says that they shouldn't put us in harms way. Some HGV drivers (mostly those working for local authorities) get the same training. Some construction firms have their own training schemes - the shining example being Cemex.
Now, as it goes I had to stand at the front of the bus all the way from Borough High Street to Brixton the other day. The care taken by the driver was extraordinary - he looked at the mirrors on both sides every few seconds. I don't think that happens by accident. I don't think the Cemex drivers take care by accident, or, even the Asda drivers that pass the FNRttC on the way out to the Dartford Crossing. Someone has taken the time to say 'this is what you have to look out for'.
Pale Rider
Legendary Member
My experience leads me to give a big thumbs down to tipper/skip lorries.
I can't stop them overtaking, but if there's one in front in traffic I make sure there's another vehicle between me and it.
If you don't go within five metres of the damn thing, it can't squash you.
I can't stop them overtaking, but if there's one in front in traffic I make sure there's another vehicle between me and it.
If you don't go within five metres of the damn thing, it can't squash you.
i can see where you and dellzeg are coming from, but until the behaviour of those doing the killing is addressed, then we have to look out for ourselves and each other. Its not victim blaming, its self preservation!
Pale Rider
Legendary Member
Quite so, and also known as defensive cycling.
If I'm being passed by a tipper I will often stop pedalling, or even dab the brakes, to get the thing past me sooner.
Advising cyclists to take care around lorries is not victim-blaming. But responding to a report of a cyclist killed by a lorry by scrutinizing her behaviour and not that of the driver that killed her is victim-blaming. Some cyclists are extraordinarily careful, some are extraordinarily daft, most of us are somewhere in between. Everyone knows this. The drivers and operators of large and heavy vehicles are not entitled to kill any of them - even the really stupid ones.
Boris Bajic
Guest
A shocking story; my best wishes to the cyclist for a speedy and complete recovery.
I know that junction very well, although the pavement shape may have changed. This is the sort of vehicle around which I am very circumspect. This is the kind of junction which this kind of vehicle occasionally has to make a 'swing' at.
Certainly the driver needs to be aware of all other road users around his or her vehicle. We cannot know at this stage whether he or she was driving according to the law. Although there has been an arrest, it is not possible to lay the blame yet - and probably not helpful on an internet forum where we are all peeing into the wind to a greater or lesser extent - but there are cautionary observations to be taken away from those shocking photographs.
The immediate offside of such a vehicle in such a location is not the best place to cycle. I would not do so. If my children did so, I'd have my heart in my mouth.
Cyclists are killed by trucks like this. Cyclists are also killed by coming into contact with lorries like this. Wherever the fault lies, if indeed fault is demonstrated, I hope that no CC members (experienced or otherwise) who've read this thread and seen the images ride up alongside this sort of vehicle in traffic.
Best wishes for a full recovery to the cyclist.
I know that junction very well, although the pavement shape may have changed. This is the sort of vehicle around which I am very circumspect. This is the kind of junction which this kind of vehicle occasionally has to make a 'swing' at.
Certainly the driver needs to be aware of all other road users around his or her vehicle. We cannot know at this stage whether he or she was driving according to the law. Although there has been an arrest, it is not possible to lay the blame yet - and probably not helpful on an internet forum where we are all peeing into the wind to a greater or lesser extent - but there are cautionary observations to be taken away from those shocking photographs.
The immediate offside of such a vehicle in such a location is not the best place to cycle. I would not do so. If my children did so, I'd have my heart in my mouth.
Cyclists are killed by trucks like this. Cyclists are also killed by coming into contact with lorries like this. Wherever the fault lies, if indeed fault is demonstrated, I hope that no CC members (experienced or otherwise) who've read this thread and seen the images ride up alongside this sort of vehicle in traffic.
Best wishes for a full recovery to the cyclist.
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CafGriff
Active Member
- Location
- Plymouth, Devon
I make an absolute rle of not undertaking buses or large vehicles such as the big trucks or lorries etc ... no matter how safe I think I am, I can;t stop them from overtaking me and edging after the overtaking manouvore and taking my road space off of me. That's frightening it it's self 
Clearly from this statement i made earlier you can see i'm not victim blaming, what i am questioning is why some cyclists are still uneducated about the dangers of cycling up the sides of lorries?? and before i'm jumped on for "presuming she cycled up the side" this is because the witnesses said it.
"he should have seen her, she obviously knew he was turning left and decided to go up the outside not realising he would have to pull wide to make the turn. He may have been too busy looking for cyclists undertaking on the left side, if he knew there was a lane, not thinking a cyclist would overtake on the right. Cycle lanes should be abolished!! Cyclists should be in primary, not up the side of them where there is limited visibility. With the amount of deaths in London why are cyclists still taking chances round lorries? Why is word not getting to these cyclists?? I'm not blaming the cyclist, the lorry driver should look, but its self preservation! She is unlikely to recover properly, he has to live with what he's done. More needs to be done to educate both parties"
My previous post wasn't directed specifically at you, or the incident in the OP - which, we hope, the cyclist will survive and recover from. It's more about the depressing inevitability of the focus on victim behaviour, which will do nothing whatever to discourage the perpetrators. Lorries that are being driven dangerously or have inadequate safety measures are taking out cyclists irrespective of whether they are cycling unwisely or sensibly. As DZ points out above, buses have managed to accommodate the full range of cycling and pedestrian behaviour. Not killing people does not need to entail approving of their cycling habits - it doesn't matter if lorry driver mutters "f***ing muppet" when he sees someone squeezing up the inside at a junction, but he must see them - because he is about to move xx tonnes of lethal machinery across a space shared with vulnerable road users.
yes but no one on here is saying that the focus should be on the cyclist behaviour, we are simply saying that until such focus is duly placed where it should be, we need to look out for ourselves and each other bcoz the lorry driver is not
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