A Personal Message to Critical Mass.

[theclaud]

A hell of a lot more rational than scores of aircraft burning extra avgas circling above London waiting for a runway slot to become free at Heathrow, yes.

Neither is rational. I don't mean someone hasn't thought it through rationally, I mean that the rationale does not belong to those making the sacrifice.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

You're pandering to Ben's inability or reluctance to understand things in systemic terms. Once you have an urban dual carriageway with a few defined pedestrian crossings and the rest of it physically barred to pedestrians, manners don't really come into it - it is an entirely different space than an area where people walk freely where they choose, no matter how nice the drivers are.

I'm not pandering to anyone. I don't think I'd make a good panda.

So increase the number of pedestrian crossings, put bridges in, etc., etc.. Both parties must accept a compromise.

 

[theclaud]

We probably agree on much, judging by your posts elsewhere in this thread. I find your promotion of Fr Illich's ideals at once admirable/inspiring and utopian to the point of utter unrealism. Motorists are fully functioning people* whose behaviour is often voluntary and co-operative. I reject his assertions that a chosen mode of transport alters the person, diminishes their sense of their place in the world, etc., etc..

and remember he didn't like lifts either.

and I got conviviality out of the loft last night.

*and therefore flawed just like all of us.

Now that's what I call a result .

If you don't mind my saying so, you're failing to make a distinction between function and character. What motorists are like as people becomes increasingly irrelevant as motorised transport becomes faster, as you will find out if you try and cross a motorway on foot. Sure, people's behaviour may be voluntary and co-operative, but it must always take particular forms, and some forms are more, well, "convivial" than others.

 

[CopperBrompton]

You're pandering to Ben's inability or reluctance to understand things in systemic terms.

Quite the reverse: it is you who is failing to think in systemic terms. You appear to view pedestrians as a distinct species. The rather meaningless 'freedoms' you want to grant them would have great costs to those same people the moment they got onto their bicycle or into their car.

 

[CopperBrompton]

What motorists are like as people becomes increasingly irrelevant as motorised transport becomes faster, as you will find out if you try and cross a motorway on foot.

Most of us are willing to sacrifice the 'freedom' to wander across fields and through hedges in order to cross a motorway by foot in favour of remaining on the road or pavement to cross it via a bridge. This enormous sacrifice is worthwhile because those same motorways enable us to easily go about our business, visit friends, etc. We even tend to be convivial with those friends when we arrive.

 

[theclaud]

Quite the reverse: it is you who is failing to think in systemic terms. You appear to view pedestrians as a distinct species. The rather meaningless 'freedoms' you want to grant them would have great costs to those same people the moment they got onto their bicycle or into their car.

I'll resist the obvious invitation to get all postmodern on you, and simply point out that the "freedom" offered by cars has always been illusory, partial, and available only to some at the expense of others. And you're doing it again with cars and bicycles - completely different things, Ben! If you don't like Illich, perhaps we might try you on Andre Gorz. You'll love this :

http://www.bikereader.com/contributors/misc/gorz.html

 

[Dan B]

Most of us are willing to sacrifice the 'freedom' to wander across fields and through hedges in order to cross a motorway by foot in favour of remaining on the road or pavement to cross it via a bridge. This enormous sacrifice is worthwhile because those same motorways enable us to easily go about our business, visit friends, etc. We even tend to be convivial with those friends when we arrive.

Illich would counter that (I think, I've only really skimmed his argument) by pointing out that we're still trading time because the time we save making this journey is set against the time we spend at work paying for the car that lets us make it.

But I'm not going to argue about motorways (and maybe some of the butcher class of dual carriageways where reasonable alternative routes exist) because I tend to view them much as railways - not really public land in the first place, more just a single-purpose conduit for the exclusive purpose of getting A-B as fast as possible where special rules apply. The danger in my mind is that people take their "motorway attitude" and sense of entitlement onto other roads where it has no place. I used to live in Crick, a village just off the M1 J18 which at the time was neatly bisected by the A428 (a bypass has since been built). Despite a notional 30mph limit, crossing it on foot was not for the frail, elderly, or inform.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

No! You keep talking as if it's about what two equal groups of people think of each other. It isn't. It's about the harmful monopolisation and dominance of public space by one mode of transport. I'm sorry, but it goes without saying that a lot of motorists aren't going to "like" it, because it calls on them to think about changing their behaviour. If they don't "like" being held up by critical mass, the solution lies partly in their own hands...

Perhaps the trick to me being a reasonably happy urban commuter (on a bike) was that I never saw myself - or behaved in a way that indicated that I saw myself - as anything less than equal to every other mode of transport. If CM could somehow instill this mindset into every cyclist, it would indeed be a great thing; perhaps that's what it's trying to do. But it appears to me (and I'm a cyclist, remember) that all CM is achieving is to present cyclists as a problem, and as a mode of transport which somehow requires special facilities before it can be used. This is not a Good Thing.
And, incidentally, I wouldn't have a problem being held up by CM - except possibly in the scenario outlined in my post (number 177) - but I do object to them trying to foist the "poor downtrodden cyclist" stereotype on us all.

 

[CopperBrompton]

I'll resist the obvious invitation to get all postmodern on you

Very kind.

http://www.bikereader.com/contributors/misc/gorz.html

Most entertaining. Personally, I'll stick to the partial and illusory freedoms I gain through being able to choose my mode of transport for each particular journey. Today I think I shall employ a minicab, train, tube and airliner. (I'm hoping the pilot doesn't share your views as to optimum speed, else I'm going to be in for a very slow and wet journey.)

 

[CopperBrompton]

the time we save making this journey is set against the time we spend at work paying for the car that lets us make it.

With a net gain.

I have to sacrifice time to pay for most of the material things I want in life: bicycles, gadgets, a home ...

Despite a notional 30mph limit, crossing it on foot was not for the frail, elderly, or inform.

Which is exactly where we need speed limit enforcement but rarely where we get it, of course.

 

[Dan B]

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.rec.cycling/msg/5ac93ca3b19e800d?hl=en is what I said about CM after the one and only time I joined one of their rides. I haven't really changed my viewpoint so much since (though judging by this thread the ride has changed in character, so maybe I should) except to note additionally that I fully supported their legal battle and I'm glad they won (if nothing else, from a purely selfish perspective, as long as CM is legal the marshalled streetskates have them to point at and say "look, they're worse than we are" ;-)

A marshalled streetskate can be, incidentally, a very convivial place to spend a couple of hours, but I am forced to admit that trying to cross the road in the middle of it is still ill-advised - skaters are very closely packed even by cycle standards, and some exhibit quite poor braking skills. On the other hand, no bike lifts.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Now that's what I call a result .

If you don't mind my saying so, you're failing to make a distinction between function and character. What motorists are like as people becomes increasingly irrelevant as motorised transport becomes faster, as you will find out if you try and cross a motorway on foot. Sure, people's behaviour may be voluntary and co-operative, but it must always take particular forms, and some forms are more, well, "convivial" than others.

Say as you like. I can always cut you up* on an FNRttC!

What people are like as people becomes increasingly irrelevant as the transport they operate becomes faster. Is that really what you're arguing? Some sort of physic shift comes over them above a certain speed? Or they are so totally overwhelmed by the physics of it all that they are no longer have choice. It is an intriguing theory. I feel some more reading coming on.










*though I doubt I'd actually be able to keep up with you to do so!

 

[Dan B]

What people are like as people becomes increasingly irrelevant as the transport they operate becomes faster. Is that really what you're arguing? Some sort of physic shift comes over them above a certain speed? Or they are so totally overwhelmed by the physics of it all that they are no longer have choice. It is an intriguing theory. I feel some more reading coming on.

I wonder if it's a "frame of reference" thing. If you're driving at 60 and everyone around you is moving at your speed +/- 10mph it's easy to maintain a dialogue with them if only by low-bandwidth signalling (nods in the mirror, headlight flashes, horn in extremis, etc etc), but the poor sucker doing 12 mph along the edge of the road has too high a speed differential to be included in the party. So, a lot of motorists probably feel they're being quite reasonable and socialising to the limits of their communication channels, but are oblivious to what's happening at earth speed.

There is a cognitive load to driving, even if drivers don't like to admit it. That load must surely increase with speed differential, and maybe that's why we tend to unconsciously resent anything on the roads that makes us have to think harder?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

and what is it about Austrian Catholicism that breeds much anti-capitialist cycle fetishists? The Marxist existentialism of Gorz is probably all very well in a University Common Room but it ain't going to do much to fix human nature.

The car is near ubiquitous. Is my Fiat Cinquecento that cost less than any of my bikes to acquire really a luxury object? Is the pleasure I get from driving it, is the benefit in time saving it gives me, really a myth? I fear that he'd get "Must try harder" scrawled on that essay by my old philosophy professor!

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I wonder if it's a "frame of reference" thing. If you're driving at 60 and everyone around you is moving at your speed +/- 10mph it's easy to maintain a dialogue with them if only by low-bandwidth signalling (nods in the mirror, headlight flashes, horn in extremis, etc etc), but the poor sucker doing 12 mph along the edge of the road has too high a speed differential to be included in the party. So, a lot of motorists probably feel they're being quite reasonable and socialising to the limits of their communication channels, but are oblivious to what's happening at earth speed.

There is a cognitive load to driving, even if drivers don't like to admit it. That load must surely increase with speed differential, and maybe that's why we tend to unconsciously resent anything on the roads that makes us have to think harder?

Yep. As the once proud possessor of both ADT and ART passes from my days as a petrol head of course I recognise one's focus has to broaden as speed increases. Driving safely at high speed, and particularly at high differential speed, is much more difficult than driving slowly. How would not admit to that? How much more difficult is more difficult to quantify.

If I examine my own feelings when driving I find I only resent other motorists/drivers. Those who display what I regard as a lack of competency in their surroundings, who drive boorishly, or unstylishly, or don't operate their vehicles elegantly or effectively, or are inconsiderate. No doubt there are times when they, in turn, resent me.

But don't get me started on people who ride unlit bikes at night...