Accident this morning. Advice appreciated.

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NorthernDave

Never used Über Member
Speak to the solicitor, asking the questions you've outlined above. They are the expert you've engaged after all.
Presumably you're a BC member, so will have TP liability cover through them? Ask if that will cover you against any TP counter claim, or if things go against you in court.
 

Venod

Eh up
Location
Yorkshire
Get a claim in and say you can't get an erection anymore. My mates been waiting 3 years since he was taken out on a roundabout.

Looks like he needs some little blue pills, 3 years is a long time without.
 

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
Speak to LD. I'm with them now and we've rejected a first offer on my incident. This will be the other party thinking you'll settle and that be the end. They usually do it 'without prejudice' which means that's an end to it all, without fully accepting 'blame'. It's normal for the other side to argue some percentage of liability. They have said they would do it in my case, but we've not sent them any evidence yet and they have already made a significant offer to settle, that would cover the 'injury' but not my future costs nor the cost of my 7 months sick pay to my employer.

Wait to speak to the solicitor. If you are a BC member, you are already protected against counter claims, as you have third party insurance. If they claim, that will be handled by another company on BC's part (I've previously had a counter claim) but after all the evidence, it's never gone anywhere.
 
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EasyPeez

EasyPeez

Veteran
Thanks to everyone for all the helpful replies. I must admit I was at my wits' end after reading the letter - it read as very much 'take this offer or go to court' to me but hopefully it's not as cut and dried as that - I think I'm getting a better idea of the process and (hopefully) some of the possible middle-ground outcomes from reading your posts.

Insurance companies:

1st offer: The one they hope you'll accept
2nd offer: The one they expect you to accept
3rd offer: The most they'd pay out

I'd wait for the third and if that is not acceptable go to court.

I take your point and hopefully another offer might be forthcoming if and when I reject this one. I'm not at all interested in holding out for more money, I just want something at least vaguely resembling justice being done. I'm keen not to go to court as it sounds like that could turn out to be a lottery I can't afford a ticket for, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the case.

I'd take the slur on my character, lying about what had happened, just as seriously. "You've lied about that, what else have you lied/are you lying about?"

They want to go down that route let them, doesn't mean you have to. Whether you get anything else out of it or not, you'll know you didn't lie.

I totally agree with the slur element, but it's not really about getting anything else out of it, for me. Nor can I afford to seek a morally correct resolution at all costs - knowing I haven't lied is all well and good but not if the chance to stand by that statement in court costs me hundreds or even thousands of pounds. At this point court seems like the right thing to do morally but a potential disaster financially. I'm pretty sure that my BC liability insurance wouldn't cover court costs if I ended up having to pay them, so that would be a chunk of my kids' inheritance I'd be gambling with...

As for the tanker signalling for a driver to pull out, the law is fairly clear on the use of flashing headlights. They mean "I am here, and no other meaning should be attached to them". One excuse used by the driver that hit me, and my response to it.
Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of the legal interpretation there. Useful to know.

You are wise to be wary of a counter claim.

However, one hasn't been made yet and it's a bit late in the day to start one.
Is it? I thought you could make a PI claim up to 3 years after an accident. I'd hope this is different for a claim on damage to property, but still, couldn't she conceivably claim all kinds of psychological injury in a counter claim against me anytime from now until Jan 2019?

If you look at the commentary on Powell v Moody, the car was 'inching forward'.

Thus in legal terms, it may not matter in your case whether the car was moving or not.

That being so, there's no point in risking the unknown consequences of a court hearing to get a decision on it.
More good advice, and another reasons to be wary of taking this to court - I just wouldn't feel confident of a ruling in my favour given all these grey areas and lack of hard evidence.

Presumably you're a BC member, so will have TP liability cover through them? Ask if that will cover you against any TP counter claim, or if things go against you in court.
Yes, thanks, this is one of the questions I'm trying to get an answer about but I'm not 100% sure having read my policy docs so will call LD and BC on Tuesday to seek clarification. Cheers.

If you are a BC member, you are already protected against counter claims, as you have third party insurance.
Great news. This seems to answer the first part of the point above. Still not sure if it includes counter claims for injuries though, or just for damage to property. Hopefully both, though how she'd have the gall to make a claim for injury from (in her account) having the front of her stationary car hit by a bicycle I can't imagine.
 
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EasyPeez

EasyPeez

Veteran
Incidentally, I'm not sure if anyone has any experience of the Powell v Moody case that the defendant's solicitors in my case are using to apportion 80% blame to me, or any thoughts on this, but I just read reference to Woodham v JM Turner (see below).

To me this reads as basically the same situation as Moody vs Powell. Obviously without access to the full case notes for each it's impossible to make an in-depth comparison, but still, in this case the filtering (motor)cyclist was assigned only 30% blame, for essentially performing the same manoeuvre with the same outcome as that for which Powell was ascribed 80% blame. And in the former case apparently the main reason for apportioning 30% blame to Woodham was because his speed of 20mph was deemed excessive.

Why would the 2 essentially identical cases have such different legal outcomes?

Also, using the precedent of Woodham v Turner instead of Powell v Moody, surely it would be reasonable to argue that the blame ascribed to a cyclist in such an incident ought to be no more than the 30% Powell was ascribed? Then, bearing in mind that in my particular case I was travelling at just over half the speed of Powell, and that my stopping distance would have been considerably less than his, surely my blame ratio, if I have to accept some blame, should, based on this precedent, be no more than 15%?

Thoughts?

(T/A Turners of Great Barton) 2011, EWHC 1588 (QB), T’s employee was driving a coach which emerged at a T junction through a gap headed by a tractor and a trailer in stationary or slow moving traffic. The coach driver started to turn right to drive to the opposite side of the main road. W was driving a motorcycle along the main road towards the junction and overtaking on the outside of the slow traffic. The motorcycle struck the front offside corner of the coach and W sustained serious injuries. Mr Justice Kenneth Parker held that the coach driver was 70% liable on the basis that the view of oncoming traffic was obstructed and she should have waited for a more safe and secure opportunity to emerge. The motorcyclist shouldered 30% of the blame for the accident because it was held that there was a real possibility that a vehicle could emerge through the gap in his path. The motorcyclist’s speed of 20mph was held to be too fast for the overtaking manoeuvre he was carrying out.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
@EasyPeez, without trying to get you wound up, or put words in your mouth. You appear to be getting a little worked up(I know I did). You've said that she was moving in one post, and stationary in the last line of another(109).
I had the following excuses/defences put to me
1st June 2006 10:54.
Phonecall to 07, 10:54.
Driver has admitted that the accident took place but disputes the injuries caused.

22nd August 2006. Phoncall.
Driver involved,, insists that he wasn't present at the scene of the incident. Despite him giving his details(false) to the two Police officers who attended. He never mentioned that last part until it was mentioned
The car was however

27th September 2006.
I stopped on the road to let a bus approaching from behind pass me & then allowing him to leave H***** Lane.
He denied on the night, that there had been any bus near us, traveling either way.

25th October 2006
You were simply startled & dismounted your bike. Ending up leaving a dent in the bonnet.

23rd July 2007
He wasn't moving at the time(of collision)
 
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fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
Incidentally, I'm not sure if anyone has any experience of the Powell v Moody case that the defendant's solicitors in my case are using to apportion 80% blame to me, or any thoughts on this, but I just read reference to Woodham v JM Turner (see below).

To me this reads as basically the same situation as Moody vs Powell. Obviously without access to the full case notes for each it's impossible to make an in-depth comparison, but still, in this case the filtering (motor)cyclist was assigned only 30% blame, for essentially performing the same manoeuvre with the same outcome as that for which Powell was ascribed 80% blame. And in the former case apparently the main reason for apportioning 30% blame to Woodham was because his speed of 20mph was deemed excessive.

Why would the 2 essentially identical cases have such different legal outcomes?

Also, using the precedent of Woodham v Turner instead of Powell v Moody, surely it would be reasonable to argue that the blame ascribed to a cyclist in such an incident ought to be no more than the 30% Powell was ascribed? Then, bearing in mind that in my particular case I was travelling at just over half the speed of Powell, and that my stopping distance would have been considerably less than his, surely my blame ratio, if I have to accept some blame, should, based on this precedent, be no more than 15%?

Thoughts?

(T/A Turners of Great Barton) 2011, EWHC 1588 (QB), T’s employee was driving a coach which emerged at a T junction through a gap headed by a tractor and a trailer in stationary or slow moving traffic. The coach driver started to turn right to drive to the opposite side of the main road. W was driving a motorcycle along the main road towards the junction and overtaking on the outside of the slow traffic. The motorcycle struck the front offside corner of the coach and W sustained serious injuries. Mr Justice Kenneth Parker held that the coach driver was 70% liable on the basis that the view of oncoming traffic was obstructed and she should have waited for a more safe and secure opportunity to emerge. The motorcyclist shouldered 30% of the blame for the accident because it was held that there was a real possibility that a vehicle could emerge through the gap in his path. The motorcyclist’s speed of 20mph was held to be too fast for the overtaking manoeuvre he was carrying out.

It's a horrible process even for a small claim, as the amount of lies you get from the other party is crazy.

Hold out, go get your replacement bits (keep the broken bits) and carry on. It's stressful, but having been at the end of it a few times, you just have to keep going. This is silly messing in your case. It took nearly 4 years for my damaged shoulder to get sorted legally, but my broken spine is moving a bit quicker as the damage is done, it won't improve. It's not good, as it's almost ended my cycling, I can't cycle to work every day as my back is painful, so if I want to ride, it means picking a good day, and ride off road, then suffer a few days after due to the shock impact.

Hold out, and speak to the solicitor. Leigh Day are great. This is unfortunately, my third time of using them in 30 years cycling, all commute related incidents.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
It's a horrible process even for a small claim, as the amount of lies you get from the other party is crazy.

Hold out, go get your replacement bits (keep the broken bits) and carry on. It's stressful, but having been at the end of it a few times, you just have to keep going. This is silly messing in your case. It took nearly 4 years for my damaged shoulder to get sorted legally, but my broken spine is moving a bit quicker as the damage is done, it won't improve. It's not good, as it's almost ended my cycling, I can't cycle to work every day as my back is painful, so if I want to ride, it means picking a good day, and ride off road, then suffer a few days after due to the shock impact.

Hold out, and speak to the solicitor. Leigh Day are great. This is unfortunately, my third time of using them in 30 years cycling, all commute related incidents.
I think that wearing you down by dragging it out is supposed to be an accepted part of the process.

Do it long enough and you'll start accepting their offer. They seem to forget the human element in such incidents.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Flashing Your Headlights
What is the Legal Position?


The Highway Code provides:

110 – Flashing head lights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.

111 – Never assume that flashing head lights is a symbol inviting you to proceed. Use your own judgment and proceed carefully.
 
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EasyPeez

EasyPeez

Veteran
You appear to be getting a little worked up(I know I did). You've said that she was moving in one post, and stationary in the last line of another(109)
Not so; I'm perfectly calm here now. If you re-read post #109 and pay attention to the bit in parentheses, you'll see that my account remains consistent throughout and that it is only she who has ever said her car was stationary. Please don't see this as nitpicking - just trying to ensure clarity from my side. I appreciate your supportive and informative posts :smile:

my broken spine

This puts things in perspective; I'm so sorry to hear the outcome of your own accident was so severe and hope that your ride recovery times and pain generally diminish over time. Thanks for your help in this thread.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Not so; I'm perfectly calm here now. If you re-read post #109 and pay attention to the bit in parentheses, you'll see that my account remains consistent throughout and that it is only she who has ever said her car was stationary. Please don't see this as nitpicking - just trying to ensure clarity from my side. I appreciate your supportive and informative posts :smile:



This puts things in perspective; I'm so sorry to hear the outcome of your own accident was so severe and hope that your ride recovery times and pain generally diminish over time. Thanks for your help in this thread.
Don't see it as nit picking, in any way. I mis-read, thinking you'd said the car was moving in one post and stationary in another.

Having been through this, I know it's not nice. From the excuses offered above by the driver who drove into me, it's easy to see how they'll try to find fault with you and not their party.
 
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Pale Rider

Legendary Member
Incidentally, I'm not sure if anyone has any experience of the Powell v Moody case that the defendant's solicitors in my case are using to apportion 80% blame to me, or any thoughts on this, but I just read reference to Woodham v JM Turner (see below).

To me this reads as basically the same situation as Moody vs Powell. Obviously without access to the full case notes for each it's impossible to make an in-depth comparison, but still, in this case the filtering (motor)cyclist was assigned only 30% blame, for essentially performing the same manoeuvre with the same outcome as that for which Powell was ascribed 80% blame. And in the former case apparently the main reason for apportioning 30% blame to Woodham was because his speed of 20mph was deemed excessive.

Why would the 2 essentially identical cases have such different legal outcomes?

Also, using the precedent of Woodham v Turner instead of Powell v Moody, surely it would be reasonable to argue that the blame ascribed to a cyclist in such an incident ought to be no more than the 30% Powell was ascribed? Then, bearing in mind that in my particular case I was travelling at just over half the speed of Powell, and that my stopping distance would have been considerably less than his, surely my blame ratio, if I have to accept some blame, should, based on this precedent, be no more than 15%?

Thoughts?

(T/A Turners of Great Barton) 2011, EWHC 1588 (QB), T’s employee was driving a coach which emerged at a T junction through a gap headed by a tractor and a trailer in stationary or slow moving traffic. The coach driver started to turn right to drive to the opposite side of the main road. W was driving a motorcycle along the main road towards the junction and overtaking on the outside of the slow traffic. The motorcycle struck the front offside corner of the coach and W sustained serious injuries. Mr Justice Kenneth Parker held that the coach driver was 70% liable on the basis that the view of oncoming traffic was obstructed and she should have waited for a more safe and secure opportunity to emerge. The motorcyclist shouldered 30% of the blame for the accident because it was held that there was a real possibility that a vehicle could emerge through the gap in his path. The motorcyclist’s speed of 20mph was held to be too fast for the overtaking manoeuvre he was carrying out.

We need to be wary of what lawyers sarcastically call Google Law.

Such researches can be very misleading, not least because the full versions of most judgments remain behind subscription services.

As a general comment, I agree Powell v Moody does seem mean-spirited towards the filtering rider, but the case does appear to still be used, so that's where we are.

The 30 per cent liability in the coach case you found seems fairer to me.

Your solicitor should be on top of the latest thinking, but he seems to accept the court will likely be guided by Powell v Moody.

You mention perspective, and that is very important.

Some of those who have replied to this thread suffered serious injury.

Their cases are, quite rightly, being pursued vigorously.

Your best possible result is £600 - your full claim.

Courts being courts, a judge's decision would likely be a compromise between that and the £120 offer.

So going to court won't get you £600, it will only get you the difference between the lesser amount you are awarded and the £120.

And there's always the risk, however slight, that things take an unexpected turn.

No harm in asking your solicitor to give the other lot a prod in an upward direction, but I can't see the point of taking a lot more time and trouble over it than that.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
No harm in telling his solicitor to "prod the other lot" either.

Don't think EasyPeez wants to go to court. Court action and possible outcomes, cost wise, seem to have been mentioned in the letter. It can make you think twice about any offer made to you. It's unfair where the claim is genuine, but also makes any amount offered out of court seem worth it.

Me, I'd the other side decide to take me to court. But dropped at the last moment.
 
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EasyPeez

EasyPeez

Veteran
Thank you @Pale Rider for all the advice in this thread, it's much appreciated. A couple of last quick points -

Your best possible result is £600 - your full claim.
I don't know where this figure came from - it seems to be what the defendant's solicitors have decided to make as their (possibly initial, possibly only) offer of what my claim is worth. I'm not sure how they arrived at the figure. I have certainly never said what I think my claim should be worth.

No harm in asking your solicitor to give the other lot a prod in an upward direction
Yes, I intend to do just this. Though it's more a prod in the downward direction (of liability) that I am concerned to achieve, than an upward prod (financially).

I can't see the point of taking a lot more time and trouble over it than that
Agreed. I just want to make sure I don't end up with a whopping court bill or a ridiculous counter claim. I'm angry at her dishonesty but realise how lucky I am in life generally so don't intend to get hung up on this or pursue the claim any further than is necessary to (hopefully) ensure I don't come off out of pocket in the long run.
Can't wait for the whole thing to be behind me to be honest, and I do really feel for those on here such as @fossyant who've suffered much worse accidents and subsequent strife to achieve justice.

Cheers.
 
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