Are British Cycling & Sky being deliberately sexist?

[Flying Dodo]

the question was this - are sky/bcbeing sexist. answer NO. because whether the sky ride leader is male or female they both get paid the same and both get training and given routes.

breeze is a totally different event/activity being funded by a different funding stream (public purse), therefore even though its being actuvely publicised by sky/bc its not their place to fund it.

The issue of funding behind the scenes is completely irrelevant. Both rides are run and marketed by British Cycling & Sky, with a common aim of getting people out and about on bikes. The fact that one has a more targeted audience isn't the issue.

If you worked in a widget factory making widgets, alongside a woman taken on at the same time as you, yet the woman gets paid far more than you, presumably you wouldn't have any issues with that?

 

[velovoice]

I thought I was taking open access and equal opportunity as good and the unequal uptake as the problem. Am I right in thinking that you're taking the unequal uptake on Sky rides as an indication that there was never genuinely open access in the first place? For me, I'd rather positive action to promote women as both participants and leaders within the Sky ride framework - both genders doing the same work for the same nominal amount of money - without the risk of a Breeze ghetto.

I'd say the open access on SkyRides is equal, but the opportunity isn't really, because as long as the group is mixed, some women will decide not to go or go once and never again. You may say that's an uptake, not opportunity, issue but, whatever the organisers' official access and opportunity policies may be, the physical reality is one and the same. The access and opportunity aspects to a ride present a barrier, a psychological if not physical one. The result is low uptake.

I've gone into a lot of detail already about how women think, when they're beginning cyclists.

Is the reverse true, i.e. that if women are allowed on some rides, some men will decide not to go?

I am of course deliberately leaving children out of the equation. I do think where SkyRides succeed is with family rides. So of course there are women -- as well as men -- who will cycle for the sake of the children and go on SkyRides regularly. But the men on those rides who are themselves at beginner level are more likely to take it further and become skilled cyclists in mixed groups than women. Beginner women cyclists feel intimidated by mixed groups. That's where Breeze comes in.

"Breeze ghetto"?! (Where do you get this stuff??!) Breeze is the building block. Women who use it to "discover" cycling and continue to improve (and this is most) actually "outgrow" it quite quickly and will move onto mixed groups and clubs, provided the "atmosphere" is supportive. Breeze "membership" is very much a rolling one, as new women join all the time and women who've gained more ability and confidence move on.

ETA: I've crossed posts with TMN, who has made several of the same points but more concisely!

 

[velovoice]

That is such a good point, well made. I believe that many, if not most, men will find that idea so outlandish they will give it no credence. But it is true. Once more guys really accept that that is how many women feel, we might get somewhere.

I've edited that post, TMN - does the point still come across? or have I muddied the waters?

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

That is such a good point, well made. I believe that many, if not most, men will find that idea so outlandish they will give it no credence. But it is true. Once more guys really accept that that is how many women feel, we might get somewhere.

Wouldn't a greater female presence as Sky ride leaders help towards reducing that self-segregating?

 

[jowwy]

The issue of funding behind the scenes is completely irrelevant. Both rides are run and marketed by British Cycling & Sky, with a common aim of getting people out and about on bikes. The fact that one has a more targeted audience isn't the issue.

If you worked in a widget factory making widgets, alongside a woman taken on at the same time as you, yet the woman gets paid far more than you, presumably you wouldn't have any issues with that?

both skyride leaders get paid the same - whats your issue????

the breeze ride is for women ONLY, so who is being delibrately sexist here - breeze or sky/bc

if your segregating yourself from the skyrides then you can't then pull out the equalities card.

 

[velovoice]

Wouldn't a greater female presence as Sky ride leaders help towards reducing that self-segregating?

Psychological barrier, remember?

Yes, if there were more women leaders, maybe the barrier would lessen if not disappear. But there's still the issue of the rides themselves being mixed groups. A woman ride leader isn't going to make much difference here.

 

[velovoice]

both skyride leaders get paid the same - whats your issue????

Lots of people work in partnership organisations, doing the same work under the same "brand" if you like, but being funded from different revenue streams. This is the case with SkyRides and Breeze rides.

This has nothing to do with male and female SKYRIDE leaders.

Do you get it now? (Phew!)

And it appears the difference between "positive action" and "discrimination" (discussed above) is also passing you by.

 

[jowwy]

Lots of people work in partnership organisations, doing the same work under the same "brand" if you like, but being funded from different revenue streams. This is the case with SkyRides and Breeze rides.

This has nothing to do with male and female SKYRIDE leaders.

Do you get it now? (Phew!)

the question was - are sky/bc being delibrately sexist.

answer - NO

 

[jowwy]

Yes quite probably. I wonder what the male/female split is? If there are fewer female leaders, why is that? Would as many men go on a ride led by a woman as readily as they would one led by a man?

the club ride i go on every week is led by a female rider - does that answer the question.

 

[velovoice]

the question was - are sky/bc being delibrately sexist.

answer - NO

Okay, nice to know where you stand.

the club ride i go on every week is led by a female rider - does that answer the question.

Are these rides aimed at beginners?

 

[Flying Dodo]

both skyride leaders get paid the same - whats your issue????

the breeze ride is for women ONLY, so who is being delibrately sexist here - breeze or sky/bc

if your segregating yourself from the skyrides then you can't then pull out the equalities card.

I'd say you're living in the past, in more ways than one. Look at post #22 about positive action.

It's quite simple - Sky and British Cycling are promoting 2 lots of similar rides under their collective banners - to run one version, they pay people a bit of cash for, to run the other one they don't, yet they expect the volunteer to do far more work for nothing.

 

[velovoice]

I'd say you're living in the past, in more ways than one. Look at post #22 about positive action.

It's quite simple - Sky and British Cycling are promoting 2 lots of similar rides under their collective banners - to run one version, they pay people a bit of cash for, to run the other one they don't, yet they expect the volunteer to do far more work for nothing.

That's the original "question" in a nutshell.

...followed by nearly four pages of smokescreen that digress, divert and distract, posted by various people (all men?) arguing that Breeze rides should not be allowed to exist at all.

@totallyfixed was right. Sexism is alive and well. Long live sexism.

 

[jowwy]

Okay, nice to know where you stand.


Are these rides aimed at beginners?

the OP asked a simple question - are sky/bc being delibrately sexist?? in the detail of the post she mentioned 2 rides being promoted by sky/bc

1. Skyride - organised and funded by sky/bc with trained/qualified leaders who are paid to lead an organised ride.

rides are undertaken by all ages, sex, nationality whatever the level of expertise in rider

2. Breeze - Rides that are funded by the public purse, but promoted by sky/bc using their marketing expertise.

the funding is very limited and the rides are aimed at female cyclist trying to get into the enjoyment of group cycling or cycling by any nature, as the rides are funded by the public purse and therefore have limited cash, the rides are run by Volunteers.

now heres the kicker, they are two totally different events and are funded by two totally different sources of funding andtherefore have to totally different ways of being run.

now - if sky/bc were paying their male/female ride leaders of their skyrides different levels of pay, then YES i would agree that sky/bc were being sexist.

but in the case given by the OP i personally don't believe they are.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Yes quite probably. I wonder what the male/female split is? If there are fewer female leaders, why is that? Would as many men go on a ride led by a woman as readily as they would one led by a man?

It's not possible to see who's leading which rides so I can't say what the mix of leaders is. But, without positive action, I'd assume that it wouldn't be far off the general proportion of men to women that we see cycling on the roads.

I'm sure that many men who are competitively orientated would prefer club runs with their peers to open access Sky rides. But those who aren't in it for competition shouldn't have an issue with it - unless they already have an issue with women.... Besides, the problem is not about a lack of male uptake. And, my guess is that an increased presence of women leaders would also tame a few men's need for speed.

 

[jowwy]

That's the original "question" in a nutshell.

...followed by nearly four pages of smokescreen that digress, divert and distract, posted by various people (all men?) arguing that Breeze rides should not be allowed to exist at all.

@totallyfixed was right. Sexism is alive and well. Long live sexism.

having read all four pages - i read nowere that stated the breeze rides shouldnt exist