Are we being forced to go electric?

[Milkfloat]

I have leased cars for years and up until the chip shortage, leasing has been significantly cheaper for me than buying cars. Lease versus buy is a tricky decision for many.

 

[vickster]

This is on the presumption you were going to be changing your vehicle in the near future. Going from ICE to EV.

The best option for the World is we all do away with vehicular transport and go and live in wattle and daub huts

But he may not be in a position to choose between a 20k+ EV and a 20k+ ICE
There aren’t any sub 5k say EVs (or even sub 10k currently)

 

[icowden]

I think you need to consider the lowest efficiency for both not the highest. Choose the highest I think you're looking at the propaganda figures.

Fair point.

My big issue with EVs , the reason why I'm hanging off in the hope something else better comes along, is the cost and batteries. Batteries are not great things to be at the centre of your energy supply IMHO. They're a weakness. I think hydrogen cells are supposed to be a better longterm option but it's not there yet.

Again I agree, but i think Hydrogen will end up as the Betamax of car fuels. Battery tech is going to improve quickly and get a lot greener as we find better ways of storing electrical energy. There is research in to solid state batteries, wireless charging, roads that can charge cars - all sorts is coming but the investment is in electric.

 

[vickster]

I have leased cars for years and up until the chip shortage, leasing has been significantly cheaper for me than buying cars. Lease versus buy is a tricky decision for many.

Being able to lease (without the benefit of a company car allowance for example) simply isn’t an option for many (how much are your monthly lease fees for example)?
Not everyone needs or wants a car that is less than 5 years old.
For me to spend say £400 a month on a lease would be utterly ridiculous for the miles I do! Yes I could afford it (although I’d rather pay it into my retirement fund). I spent 12k on a car 9 years ago, I’ve done 30k miles in that time. I plan to keep it for another 9 years at least!
I could also buy a 50k Tesla tomorrow but that would be even more ridiculous for dozens of reasons!

 

[midlife]

A well priced PCP is often not too far off the depreciation over the 3 years of the lease, especial if you tried to sell it privately.

Here is a standard PCP quote from last year APR 4.9 % Not sure how you would make money ?

 

[FishFright]

Here is a standard PCP quote from last year APR 4.9 % Not sure how you would make money ?

View attachment 651954

Re-read what I said and google that instead.

 

[Time Waster]

So to summarize your strategy - do nothing. Keep burning fossil fuels and increase the rate of climate change but cross your fingers and hope for some pixie dust idea to sort things out ?

Interesting.

Hardly doing nothing. We work from home or use public transport / bikes for most of our journeys. We use more efficient food delivery than joining the masses in their steel boxes to travel 20 minutes and travel to the supermarket. We're insulating the house above recommended levels. Plus we've got solar panels that right now supplies all our daylight hours electricity needs and then some.

As for pixie dust. Is that what you call hydrogen cells? Not quite there but it's got a similar distribution system as petrol and diesel. Its fill and go without a long wait. It's cleaner than battery powered EVs too. It's not ready but I think we're not far off. AIUI there's a few pilot scale hydrogen generating sites. Even read something about it being a bye product of some other industry. Also, it won't need a completely new distribution network like EVs and their charging site.

 

[FishFright]

Hardly doing nothing. We work from home or use public transport / bikes for most of our journeys. We use more efficient food delivery than joining the masses in their steel boxes to travel 20 minutes and travel to the supermarket. We're insulating the house above recommended levels. Plus we've got solar panels that right now supplies all our daylight hours electricity needs and then some.

As for pixie dust. Is that what you call hydrogen cells? Not quite there but it's got a similar distribution system as petrol and diesel. Its fill and go without a long wait. It's cleaner than battery powered EVs too. It's not ready but I think we're not far off. AIUI there's a few pilot scale hydrogen generating sites. Even read something about it being a bye product of some other industry. Also, it won't need a completely new distribution network like EVs and their charging site.

I t will and a load of new tech is needed to make it work as a mass market fuel.

In addition cryogenic transport of hydrogen will cost a fortune compared to liquid fuels

 

[midlife]

Re-read what I said and google that instead.

This is what you said

A well priced PCP is often not too far off the depreciation over the 3 years of the lease, especial if you tried to sell it privately

To sell the car privately you have to own it and pay the final payment (so you have legal title over it). Not sure you would recoup the total cost on selling it?

 

[Milzy]

We should have modern nuclear power stations built. Germany are going back to coal because of the Russia problem. In the U.K. we have bio mass poo/wood pellets which cause as much pollution as coal fired & we import those from South America & other places far away.
What’s the point of riding around in these cars which are indirectly powered by fossil fuels anyway? Talk about kicking the can down the road. Electric car owners are so smug but what about the children on 1 penny a day mining lithium in awful conditions for 12 hours plus a day?

 

[SpokeyDokey]

Tangential to the main debate in this thread but the amount of copper that needs to be mined, refined, transported and converted into a usable object of power production is hideous:

https://resourcecapitalfunds.com/a-lower-carbon-world-requires-more-copper/

I'm not anti-EV but the upstream downsides of some of the sources of electricity used to power EV's seem to be glossed over. Ditto onboard battery production requirements.

I've yet to see a persuasive analysis, in one direction or the other, of all costs of EV's vs all costs of ICE vehicles over an average vehicle lifespan.

 

[CXRAndy]

We should have modern nuclear power stations built. Germany are going back to coal because of the Russia problem. In the U.K. we have bio mass poo/wood pellets which cause as much pollution as coal fired & we import those from South America & other places far away.
What’s the point of riding around in these cars which are indirectly powered by fossil fuels anyway? Talk about kicking the can down the road. Electric car owners are so smug but what about the children on 1 penny a day mining lithium in awful conditions for 12 hours plus a day?

What device you have just posted on this forum will have lithium power.

50% of UK energy is from renewable sources.

I suggest you go around your home total up all the lithium based energy devices. I bet you weren't concerned upto the point of objecting to the smug EV owners

 

[ClichéGuevara]

What device you have just posted on this forum will have lithium power.

50% of UK energy is from renewable sources.

I suggest you go around your home total up all the lithium based energy devices. I bet you weren't concerned upto the point of objecting to the smug EV owners

That's debatable, as that requires back up from other sources, and it includes biomass, and is under 50%.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

But he may not be in a position to choose between a 20k+ EV and a 20k+ ICE
There aren’t any sub 5k say EVs (or even sub 10k currently)

That seems to pass a lot of people by. As I mentioned, those that can afford to buy such things end up paying less fuel and excise duty, which is liable to be recovered from the poorer people that are less able to afford to use the roads in the first place.

One consequence will be that older cars will be kept on the roads longer, and adding to emissions.

It's a 'solution' that sounds good, but changes one problem for others that are liable to be more immediate, wider reaching and worse.

Sadly, any comments not in praise of EV's, seem to result in comments questioning the understanding, and implications of not caring, or climate denial etc. They're just ways of putting fingers in ears and singing lah lah lah.

 

[icowden]

One consequence will be that older cars will be kept on the roads longer, and adding to emissions.

Not for long. They will likely be too expensive to run by 2040.

Sadly, any comments not in praise of EV's, seem to result in comments questioning the understanding, and implications of not caring, or climate denial etc. They're just ways of putting fingers in ears and singing lah lah lah.

Not true. However many on hear will rebut the assertion that EVs are less good for the environment than ICE cars.