Are we being forced to go electric?

[classic33]

They have a car with the potential to be fully autonomous. Their FSD chip is a fully AI driven and years ahead of any of its rivals.
Unfortunately it can only be used fully in the USA at the moment.

Not even in the US. As they,Tesla, don't class it as a Class 4 vehicle. Including their Beta version.

 

[icowden]

Not even in the US. As they,Tesla, don't class it as a Class 4 vehicle. Including their Beta version.

They can use it fully. With a subscription. It has not yet reached level 4, but they can use the current functionality fully.

 

[icowden]

Yeah - really impressive.
25mins 30secs.

I said pretty impressive, not perfect. And you are comparing different software versions.
Show me another model of car that can drive from San Francisco to LA without any intervention and deal with complex intersections, without needing driver input.

 

[classic33]

They can use it fully. With a subscription. It has not yet reached level 4, but they can use the current functionality fully.

The only way you can use it is to buy it as an "extra" with a monthly charge, currently sitting at $199, soon to be raised.

"Tesla's Full-Self Driving option, also known as FSD, is a premium package that includes the Autopilot functions, and more sophisticated features like automatic lane-changing, stop light recognition, and "smart summon" which lets drivers call their car from a parking spot to come pick them up, using their smartphone and the Tesla app like a remote control. Despite the name, it does not today allow cars to drive themselves automatically with no driver intervention."

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/07/elon-musk-says-tesla-will-raise-price-of-fsd-to-12000-in-us.html

 

[icowden]

The only way you can use it is to buy it as an "extra" with a monthly charge, currently sitting at $199, soon to be raised.

"Tesla's Full-Self Driving option, also known as FSD, is a premium package that includes the Autopilot functions, and more sophisticated features like automatic lane-changing, stop light recognition, and "smart summon" which lets drivers call their car from a parking spot to come pick them up, using their smartphone and the Tesla app like a remote control. Despite the name, it does not today allow cars to drive themselves automatically with no driver intervention."

Then we are agreed. Customers in the USA can use the power of Full Self Drive to its fullest extent permitted by the existing software, but not in the UK. The car has the potential to be fully autonomous as Musk has ensured that the technology built in and the power of the FSD chips will permit that. In the US people are able to have FSD enabled. They then receive OTA updates regularly enhancing the experience and improving (usually!) FSD Autopilot. At the moment, although the car can drive itself and deal with a huge number of situations, the driver must have their hand on the wheel and be prepared to disengage FSD / Autopilot.

The subscription issue is a bit more complex.

If you have purchased FSD for $10,000 then you need no subscription.
If you want FSD but can't afford $10,000 then you can have it on subscription intead:-
If you have a model with enhanced autopilot then you can take out a subscription to upgrade to FSD for $99 per month
If you have a model with basic autopilot then you can take out a subscription to upgrade to FSD for $199 per month
If you don't have the FSD V3 chips then you can pay $1500 to install the hardware, and a subscription thereafter.

 

[classic33]

Then we are agreed. Customers in the USA can use the power of Full Self Drive to its fullest extent permitted by the existing software, but not in the UK. The car has the potential to be fully autonomous as Musk has ensured that the technology built in and the power of the FSD chips will permit that. In the US people are able to have FSD enabled. They then receive OTA updates regularly enhancing the experience and improving (usually!) FSD Autopilot. At the moment, although the car can drive itself and deal with a huge number of situations, the driver must have their hand on the wheel and be prepared to disengage FSD / Autopilot.

The subscription issue is a bit more complex.

If you have purchased FSD for $10,000 then you need no subscription.
If you want FSD but can't afford $10,000 then you can have it on subscription intead:-
If you have a model with enhanced autopilot then you can take out a subscription to upgrade to FSD for $99 per month
If you have a model with basic autopilot then you can take out a subscription to upgrade to FSD for $199 per month
If you don't have the FSD V3 chips then you can pay $1500 to install the hardware, and a subscription thereafter.

No.
The owners allowed to purchase the option aren't allowed to use it to it fullest extent as the law doesn't allow it. It isn't a Class 4 vehicle.

 

[icowden]

No.
The owners allowed to purchase the option aren't allowed to use it to it fullest extent as the law doesn't allow it. It isn't a Class 4 vehicle.

Yes. They are allowed to use it to the fullest extent as allowed by the software in the vehicle. It doesn't matter what class it is. The vehicle software requires you to drive it as a class 2 autonomous vehicle. It has the potential however, if the software AI learns enough, to become a Class 3, 4 or 5 vehicle.

You can't use features that the software hasn't been programmed to let you use.

 

[classic33]

Yes. They are allowed to use it to the fullest extent as allowed by the software in the vehicle. It doesn't matter what class it is. The vehicle software requires you to drive it as a class 2 autonomous vehicle. It has the potential however, if the software AI learns enough, to become a Class 3, 4 or 5 vehicle.

You can't use features that the software hasn't been programmed to let you use.

The law says no!
As does Elon Musk. The vehicles are Class 2, not Class 4.

 

[gzoom]

The law says no!
As does Elon Musk. The vehicles are Class 2, not Class 4.

I love AP 'discussions', all of this surely confirms just how far ahead Tesla is with software versus any other car brand.

To suggest Tesla has a software reliability issue is like saying cycling is bad for the environment. Some people will argue about everything and anything, it doesn't make them correct.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Just to change direction slightly from Tesla…….


Went to the local Peugeot garage to look at a 208 EV . My lad has 2013 208 , it’s been a fairly reliable car it’s needing some work done this year but trade in value is nuts considering what we paid for it. Anyway here is the problem for those trying to get on to the bandwagon £28k for an eff…in 208 !!!! The petrol one is £10k cheaper !!! That is absolutely stupid. It’s not even top spec trim and range is rubbish but probably fine for him .

 

[cougie uk]

Just to change direction slightly from Tesla…….


Went to the local Peugeot garage to look at a 208 EV . My lad has 2013 208 , it’s been a fairly reliable car it’s needing some work done this year but trade in value is nuts considering what we paid for it. Anyway here is the problem for those trying to get on to the bandwagon £28k for an eff…in 208 !!!! The petrol one is £10k cheaper !!! That is absolutely stupid. It’s not even top spec trim and range is rubbish but probably fine for him .

Resale of the Petrol one will be buttons in a few years though.
1/10 the cost in fuel, less maintenance, zero emissions tax.

Depending on your mileages that ten k difference will come down with time.

 

[icowden]

The law says no!
As does Elon Musk. The vehicles are Class 2, not Class 4.

I think you are arguing a point that hasn't been made.

I'll try again.

The cars have the technology to reach class 4
The cars have software that enables class 2
Users can use the full power of FSD Self Driving as permitted by the Tesla software, in conjunction with local laws. This means at present, FSD Self drive is only available to drivers in the USA. But they can use if fully as permitted by the software.

Only the developers can unleash the power to reach class 4 and that is dependent on the AI learning enough.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Resale of the Petrol one will be buttons in a few years though.
1/10 the cost in fuel, less maintenance, zero emissions tax.

Depending on your mileages that ten k difference will come down with time.

Resale values is a guess right now I did put up a link that costs may come down for EVs but that’s a stumbling block right now !! I just could not believe the price though it’s silly .

 

[lazybloke]

The amount of software Tesla deploy to run the cars is mind-boggling, however I've literally never heard of a 'software' issues making a Tesla 'undrivable'.

Apparently Which? think otherwise. If I owned a Tesla I'd read that report pretty quickly.

I'd love a Tesla, they are truly ground-breaking, and represent a massive (and overdue) paradigm shift in the car industry.
But the various stories of paint issues, rust, poor assembly quality and poor reliability need to be addressed. All those things will improve, every new model will be better, but some of the press reports are absolutely shocking for a premium brand.

And is it true that many driver controls are only accessible via touch-screen menus? WTAF?


And as for self-driving... Yes, it has promise. It reacts faster than a human, it well never fall asleep at the wheel, it will never deliberately break the law, never suffer from road rage. All good things.

Doesn't mean it's perfect. Far from it, as can be seen when one kills people by driving itself into a tree/barrier/pedestrian/lorry/parked car, etc.
We all know software isn't perfect, and neither is the underlying hardware.

 

[icowden]

I'd love a Tesla, they are truly ground-breaking, and represent a massive (and overdue) paradigm shift in the car industry.
But the various stories of paint issues, rust, poor assembly quality and poor reliability need to be addressed. All those things will improve, every new model will be better, but some of the press reports are absolutely shocking for a premium brand.

The issues are constantly being ironed out and many of the key issues tend to be with older cars (but by no means all).

And is it true that many driver controls are only accessible via touch-screen menus? WTAF?

Yes Pretty much every driver control is accessed via the touch screen. The Tesla has no need of buttons. When you have driven one, you will understand why. The only buttons (I think) are for the windows. The driver has a wheel and stalks for indicator, windscreen washer and high / low beam. There are two scroll wheels on the steering wheel.

And as for self-driving... Yes, it has promise. It reacts faster than a human, it well never fall asleep at the wheel, it will never deliberately break the law, never suffer from road rage. All good things. Doesn't mean it's perfect.

I don't think anyone suggested it was. Just that it was leagues ahead of its rivals.

Far from it, as can be seen when one kills people by driving itself into a tree/barrier/pedestrian/lorry/parked car, etc.

Although these are mostly ID10T errors, and caused by the driver not being vigilant.