Are we being forced to go electric?

[roubaixtuesday]

This!

In car parks

while collecting their children from nursery (suffocating the other parents in the process)

etc. etc.

makes me wonder how many of them pay for their own fuel

It's apparently illegal to sit with your engine idling.

https://www.webuyanycar.com/guides/car-ownership/leave-your-car-running-idling/

As well as stupid.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

It's apparently illegal to sit with your engine idling.

https://www.webuyanycar.com/guides/car-ownership/leave-your-car-running-idling/

As well as stupid.

That article is incorrect. Section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says no such thing, and the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) Regulations of 2002 only apply if they have designated the area.

 

[DRM]

Electrification or hydrogen for HGV is here now. Amazon has ordered something like 100,000 EV delivery vans from Rivian. The whole transport system will need to be overhauled completely if we are to help reverse global climate and pollution.

Change isn't going to happen in parallel across all transport types, would be wonderous if it did. Piecemeal approach, as there are so many NIMBYs, Neo Luddites.

Yes a load of electric Mercedes Sprinters, with 95 miles range at best, I believe real world range is around 80 miles, absolutely hopeless for a van, no good for Couriers or Service Technicians, with a miserly 731 kg payload, in my case it would be overloaded, where my current van would be well within load capacity, and I’d spend more time charging it than working, it wouldn’t even get me to my first job tomorrow

 

[Alex321]

That article is incorrect. Section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says no such thing, and the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) Regulations of 2002 only apply if they have designated the area.

It is sort of correct, although in a roundabout way.

Section 42 of the RTA says it is an offence to breach construction and use regulations, and Construction & Use Regulation 98 says:

"Stopping of engine when stationary​

98.—(1) Save as provided in paragraph (2), the driver of a vehicle shall, when the vehicle is stationary, stop the action of any machinery attached to or forming part of the vehicle so far as may be necessary for the prevention of noise.

(2) The provisions of paragraph (1) do not apply—

(a)when the vehicle is stationary owing to the necessities of traffic;

(b)so as to prevent the examination or working of the machinery where the examination is necessitated by any failure or derangement of the machinery or where the machinery is required to be worked for a purpose other than driving the vehicle; or

(c)in respect of a vehicle propelled by gas produced in plant carried on the vehicle, to such plant."

 

[roubaixtuesday]

That article is incorrect. Section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says no such thing, and the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) Regulations of 2002 only apply if they have designated the area.

AIUI that section makes the highest code enforceable.

The code states

Rule 123. The Driver and the Environment. You MUST NOT leave a parked vehicle unattended with the engine running or leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is stationary on a public road.

Happy to be corrected.

[I see @Alex321 beat me to it]

 

[ClichéGuevara]

AIUI that section makes the highest code enforceable.

The code states

Rule 123. The Driver and the Environment. You MUST NOT leave a parked vehicle unattended with the engine running or leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is stationary on a public road.

Happy to be corrected.

[I see @Alex321 beat me to it]

Only if the local authority have applied for a designation under other legislation.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

It is sort of correct, although in a roundabout way.

Section 42 of the RTA says it is an offence to breach construction and use regulations, and Construction & Use Regulation 98 says:

"Stopping of engine when stationary​

98.—(1) Save as provided in paragraph (2), the driver of a vehicle shall, when the vehicle is stationary, stop the action of any machinery attached to or forming part of the vehicle so far as may be necessary for the prevention of noise.

(2) The provisions of paragraph (1) do not apply—

(a)when the vehicle is stationary owing to the necessities of traffic;

(b)so as to prevent the examination or working of the machinery where the examination is necessitated by any failure or derangement of the machinery or where the machinery is required to be worked for a purpose other than driving the vehicle; or

(c)in respect of a vehicle propelled by gas produced in plant carried on the vehicle, to such plant."

It's unenforceable unless the local authority have applied for a designation, or the vehicle is unattended.

 

[Alex321]

It's unenforceable unless the local authority have applied for a designation, or the vehicle is unattended.

Any reason for that belief?

Section 42 of the RTA says nothing about any designation, and nor does regulation 98.

The "designation" you are talking about is completely separate legislation, applying to completely separate regulations.

The "unattended" bit is CUR 107. CUR 98 is the one which matters here when the vehicle is occupied.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Any reason for that belief?

Section 42 of the RTA says nothing about any designation, and nor does regulation 98.

The "designation" you are talking about is completely separate legislation, applying to completely separate regulations.

The "unattended" bit is CUR 107. CUR 98 is the one which matters here when the vehicle is occupied.

It's not a belief, it's a fact, but feel free to pay the fines if you doubt me.

 

[icowden]

Not quite so as large tyres, weight and SUV type cars is making the average mpg less rather than more. USA had gone 14% in the wrong direction last time I checked, which is mind you a couple of years ago. I wonder if the engines efficiency is peaking and market trends are ruining any gains.

But now we are seeing the switch to EVs - so mpg becomes irrelevant and efficiency more than doubles. So whilst thy might have much more weight, the motor efficiency more than makes up for it. To make them better we need more investment in renewables. Norway is 99% renewable energy so their EVs are the cleanest in the world.

 

[Alex321]

It's not a belief, it's a fact, but feel free to pay the fines if you doubt me.

So how do you explain away the actual regulations I quoted, turning them into your "fact" that they don't apply?

I won't be paying any fines, because it is just not something I would do anyhow. But fine would be payable and enforceable. I have no idea why you believe otherwise.

 

[classic33]

AIUI that section makes the highest code enforceable.

The code states

Rule 123. The Driver and the Environment. You MUST NOT leave a parked vehicle unattended with the engine running or leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is stationary on a public road.

Happy to be corrected.

[I see @Alex321 beat me to it]

Slightly different wording in the current Highway Code, plus exclusions.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

So how do you explain away the actual regulations I quoted, turning them into your "fact" that they don't apply?

I won't be paying any fines, because it is just not something I would do anyhow. But fine would be payable and enforceable. I have no idea why you believe otherwise.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/1808/contents/made


3.—(1) Where any part of the area of a local authority is for the time being designated as an air quality management area in accordance with section 83, that authority may apply to the Secretary of State to be a designated local authority.

(2) An application under paragraph (1) shall be in writing and shall be accompanied by a copy of each of the following documents—

(a)the latest review it has conducted, and the latest assessment it has made pursuant to section 82; and

(b)the order designating its air quality management area pursuant to section 83.

 

[Alex321]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/1808/contents/made


3.—(1) Where any part of the area of a local authority is for the time being designated as an air quality management area in accordance with section 83, that authority may apply to the Secretary of State to be a designated local authority.

(2) An application under paragraph (1) shall be in writing and shall be accompanied by a copy of each of the following documents—

(a)the latest review it has conducted, and the latest assessment it has made pursuant to section 82; and

(b)the order designating its air quality management area pursuant to section 83.

Different legislation.

Have you even looked at the legislation I referred to?

Construction and Use regulations
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/98/made

Stopping of engine when stationary​

98.—(1) Save as provided in paragraph (2), the driver of a vehicle shall, when the vehicle is stationary, stop the action of any machinery attached to or forming part of the vehicle so far as may be necessary for the prevention of noise.

(2) The provisions of paragraph (1) do not apply—

(a)when the vehicle is stationary owing to the necessities of traffic;

(b)so as to prevent the examination or working of the machinery where the examination is necessitated by any failure or derangement of the machinery or where the machinery is required to be worked for a purpose other than driving the vehicle; or

(c)in respect of a vehicle propelled by gas produced in plant carried on the vehicle, to such plant.
=========================================================================================

Leaving motor vehicles unattended​

107.—(1) Save as provided in paragraph (2), no person shall leave, or cause or permit to be left, on a road a motor vehicle which is not attended by a person licensed to drive it unless the engine is stopped and any parking brake with which the vehicle is required to be equipped is effectively set.

(2) The requirement specified in paragraph (1) as to the stopping of the engine shall not apply in respect of a vehicle—

(a)being used for ambulance, fire brigade or police purposes; or

(b)in such a position and condition as not to be likely to endanger any person or property and engaged in an operation which requires its engine to be used to—

(i)drive machinery forming part of, or mounted on, the vehicle and used for purposes other than driving the vehicle; or

(ii)maintain the electrical power of the batteries of the vehicle at a level required for driving that machinery or apparatus.

(3) In this regulation “parking brake” means a brake fitted to a vehicle in accordance with requirement 16 or 18 in Schedule 3.

And this part of the Road Traffic Act makes it an offence to breach the CUR.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/42

[F142Breach of other construction and use requirements.​

A person who—

(a)contravenes or fails to comply with any construction or use requirement other than one within section 41A(a) or 41B(1)(a) [F2or 41D] of this Act, or

(b)uses on a road a motor vehicle or trailer which does not comply with such a requirement, or causes or permits a motor vehicle or trailer to be so used,

is guilty of an offence.]

Now, if you can explain why the above does not apply (or needs designation), please do.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Different legislation.

Have you even looked at the legislation I referred to?

Construction and Use regulations
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/98/made



And this part of the Road Traffic Act makes it an offence to breach the CUR.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/42


Now, if you can explain why the above does not apply (or needs designation), please do.

Full circle, because the legislation doesn't stand alone. It needs to be designated before the local authority has the right to issue penalties.