BBC helmet cam film to explore cyclist-motorist conflict

[Bassjunkieuk]

You should always cycle in primary position unless external forces dictate otherwise - simples really.

From the snippets I've seen here he seems to contradict himself somewhat as he first gives reasons to use primary, which outside of the obvious to stop a safe overtake, states you are able to keep up with traffic. Now I doubt many of us can maintain 30+mph. He also states it shouldn't be used when you are possibly impeding cars behind (I. E when it's safe for them to pass)

He then says to always use it to improve visibility. At the end of the day cycle craft is just a book full of coping mechanisms for our crap roads and assumes most riders can sprint to 20mph, something the vast majority of cyclists (or potential ones) couldn't do and why should they?

 

[Boris Bajic]

This spat about the definition and use of Primary is something like a microcosm of one element of UK cyclists.

There is in some cyclists what might be termed the righteous arrogance of the self-appointed expert. I do not say that anyone involved in the above spat comes across that way, but one does see it.

Old codgers like me, who have ridden and driven for decades, often see the highway as a place for give and take, a place for courteous and pragmatic positioning and a place for adapting as conditions suggest.

Arguing about the correct definition of Primary Position smacks a little to some lifelong cyclists of bickering about the plumage on angels' wings.

Even clever books like Cyclecraft are not some sort of Holy Text or Universal Declaration. Be happy that you agree with yourself and accept that others (rightly or wrongly) might either disagree with you or think you a fool.

Any of us who take the time to contribute to an online debate about road poisition have virtually (by definition) excluded our own views from serious consideration. It's the Internet, after all.

 

[summerdays]

That's the problem. People rely on snippets rather than reading the book. And they comment on the basis of snippets, rather than understanding the context,

Franklin doesn't contradict himself. He's talking about vehicular cycling and being part of the traffic flow, particularly in crowded urban areas. And, given that the average speed of a vehicle on London's roads (and it's similar in many other cities and towns) is about 9 mph, in those circumstances cyclists can easily ride at the speed of motor vehicles.

But it isn't 9 mph all the time. I tend to commute at rush hour times in the morning so it can be very slow moving traffic I can keep up on the flat or downhill (I'm not the fastest rider especially up hill). The rest of my cycling is normally outside of rush hour so cars are often faster than me (though I can catch up due to traffic lights).

I find that the slower your normal speed as a cyclist the harder (not quite the word I'm looking for), it is to cycle in primary - I notice the effect when I'm under the weather, that I become less confident about using primary in some situations.

 

[Scruffmonster]

Old codgers like me, who have ridden and driven for decades, often see the highway as a place for give and take, a place for courteous and pragmatic positioning and a place for adapting as conditions suggest.

This should be applied. By old and young codgers alike.

I had a barmy incident a week ago. Coming up to a wide(ish) pinch point that had a 1/4 mile stretch of single file uphill beyond it (busy in the opposite direction) I heard and saw a Car behind me, so with my left hand I eased the brakes from 20mph down to 15mph, and with my right hand, waved the car through.

The car passed, but due to my slowing, a cyclist also caught me and gave me the wise words of; "You should have taken Primary there and made him wait".

I'm of the opinion that we're all trying to get somewhere and that we should all get along. Percentage wise, there are just as many cyclists contributing to problems on the roads as there are vehicle drivers.

(Sorry Boris, I know I've quoted you there and only half of my post relates to the quotation)

 

[Boris Bajic]

This should be applied. By old and young codgers alike.

I had a barmy incident a week ago. Coming up to a wide(ish) pinch point that had a 1/4 mile stretch of single file uphill beyond it (busy in the opposite direction) I heard and saw a Car behind me, so with my left hand I eased the brakes from 20mph down to 15mph, and with my right hand, waved the car through.

The car passed, but due to my slowing, a cyclist also caught me and gave me the wise words of; "You should have taken Primary there and made him wait".

I'm of the opinion that we're all trying to get somewhere and that we should all get along. Percentage wise, there are just as many cyclists contributing to problems on the roads as there are vehicle drivers.

(Sorry Boris, I know I've quoted you there and only half of my post relates to the quotation)

This is just the sort of behaviour I had in mind and is what I wish I was thoughtful enough to do more often. In truth there are five times I fail to do it for every time I do.

Usually when I don't it's because I'm climbing or cross or 'in a hurry' or 'doing a time'.

 

[PK99]

And, given that the average speed of a vehicle on London's roads (and it's similar in many other cities and towns) is about 9 mph, in those circumstances cyclists can easily ride at the speed of motor vehicles.

Eh? You are applying city averages to specific circumstances.

I can point to goodly number of local traffic calmed roads where I ride in primary through the pinch points but move back to secondary in between. I am way below the average car speeds on those roads.

 

[PK99]

This should be applied. By old and young codgers alike.

I had a barmy incident a week ago. Coming up to a wide(ish) pinch point that had a 1/4 mile stretch of single file uphill beyond it (busy in the opposite direction) I heard and saw a Car behind me, so with my left hand I eased the brakes from 20mph down to 15mph, and with my right hand, waved the car through.

The car passed, but due to my slowing, a cyclist also caught me and gave me the wise words of; "You should have taken Primary there and made him wait".

ation)

A question for the panel:

A: You are riding two abreast up hill on a narrow lane, a car comes up behind. Do you single out to let the car pass?

B: You are riding two abreast up hill on a narrow lane, a club run double pace line comes up behind. Do you single out to let them pass?

If the answer is different, why?

 

[PK99]

Read the book...

I have

 

[Scruffmonster]

A question for the panel:

A: You are riding two abreast up hill on a narrow lane, a car comes up behind. Do you single out to let the car pass?

B: You are riding two abreast up hill on a narrow lane, a club run double pace line comes up behind. Do you single out to let them pass?

If the answer is different, why?

As a general answer, I'll look after my own safety, then if it's convenient, let anything come past me that's capable of travelling faster.

What I will add, is that I've got quite ridiculous downhill passes from Pacelines that I've never had from cars.

 

[summerdays]

Read the book...

I have

Me too - I own two versions of it even. It was one of the best bits of advice I picked up from the old C+ website!

Though I admit it is good to reread sections every now and again.

 

[gaz]

I don't disagree.

What I was simply pointing out was that gaz's assertion that the majority of cycling should be in secondary was not correct. Secondary is the position of second choice (again, the name's a bit of a give away). Secondary is also dangerous in high traffic volume areas in cities, as recent cases have shown, as it puts you in the danger zone.

My apologies, that was based on my perception of how I use the road, where the majority of my riding is in secondary due to the nature of the roads I cycle on.
As I said later on, primary to secondary usage is all dependent on the conditions of the roads you cycle on and can vary much between different individuals. I cycled to Brighton recently and took a primary position for less than 5% of the journey.

 

[PK99]

Me too - I own two versions of it even. It was one of the best bits of advice I picked up from the old C+ website!

Though I admit it is good to reread sections every now and again.

I reread sections regularly ESP when pointing out on here that following it's advice would have avoided an accident or confrontation.

 

[PK99]

I don't disagree.

What I was simply pointing out was that gaz's assertion that the majority of cycling should be in secondary was not correct. Secondary is the position of second choice (again, the name's a bit of a give away). Secondary is also dangerous in high traffic volume areas in cities, as recent cases have shown, as it puts you in the danger zone.

The case you reference did not arise though use of secondary, it arose from cycling in the door zone.

I don't have cyclecraft to hand, but am pretty sure the advice in that circumstance would have been to ride outside the door zone ie in primary not secondary.

 

[HLaB]

My interpretation is the Primary is the first position you think about taking subject to vehicle flow etc and the secondary is naturally enough the Secondary is second position you think about when conditions don't allow you to adopt the primary. Therefore apart from junctions etc most of my urban riding is done in the secondary but when I'm able to, I prefer to be in the primary.

 

[summerdays]

Exactly. It arose because the cyclist was cycling where he really shouldn't have been cycling (that is not to blame him for the incident however which is firmly the fault of the car driver), probably through some misguided belief that is where he should have been.

It doesn't help when we have people on this forum suggesting that

When I'm riding I tend to ride in what I consider to be an appropriate position for the situation, mostly just outside the grids on the left but rarely much wider unless the road conditions are really bad.

and others suggesting this is appropriate, as gaz did.

I didn't necessarily read that as gaz saying that he was riding in the correct position. What gaz said was:

You aren't meant to ride in primary all of the time. It's a position you take when people shouldn't be overtaking you or if you want to make your self more visible.
Most riding is done in a position labelled as Secondary. Which is nearer to the side of the road.

But I think what gaz was saying that that fudgepanda was wrong to think that he should only ride in primary. (Ignore whether it is the majority or minority of the time that should be spent in that position).

I would say that I don't consider secondary position to be in relation to the kerb, rather that it relates to where the left hand wheel of a car might be on the road.