Being yelled at and perceptions of cyclists....

[Rhythm Thief]

There strikes me as no need for revision of a text - which I've never read either - when only one person is confused about what it says.

 

[jimboalee]

There strikes me as no need for revision of a text - which I've never read either - when only one person is confused about what it says.

I am not confused. I understand what Franklin is saying.

I am merely discussing the logic.

Does it really matter?

How many motorists have shouted "Get out of Primary into Secondary you f*cking tw*t!"

The two who shouted at me shouted "Get out the middle of the road you f*cking tw*t!"

 

[jimboalee]

OK, so it's a teaching technique.

I only wish he'd given it a bit more thought.

 

[brokenbetty]

And confuse everyone even MORE...

Everyone? It's only you who is confused. Despite your best efforts to spread that confusion, it remains pretty clear to everyone else. Even people who haven't even read the book but just this thread have been able to match Franklin's terms to their own experience easily.

I don't think Franklin is going to re-write his book to define everything in terms relative to Jimboalee. Any increase in clarity would, I suggest, be somewhat local.

Honestly, I've had worse 'bitter and twisted', 'acidic' response from Franklin's disciples on this chatboard than from my parish Vicar concerning my views of the Bible.

You haven't had bitter and twisted responses. You've had very polite, reserved responses. You, however, have just compared everyone who didn't share what you yourself now acknowledge to be a misunderstanding to religious zealots. Classy.

 

[thomas]

But switching the names primary and secondary would be more akin to calling the star at the heart of our solar system "Pluto". You'd need to come up with completely different names.

I meant more that if Franklin was wrong he could rewrite it. Scientists changed their mind over pluto.

How many motorists have shouted "Get out of Primary into Secondary you f*cking tw*t!"

The two who shouted at me shouted "Get out the middle of the road you f*cking tw*t!"

Therefore every motorist who hasn't yelled at you for using 'primary' has understood what it is and believes it to be safe.

 

[Origamist]

It took a few years for Franklin’s nomenclature to be accepted and now it’s carved in granite within the minds of his disciples, including the bureaucratic numbsculls in transport planning offices throughout the land.

Most people recommend the text simply because it helped them. To suggest that the ideas contained in Cyclecraft have infiltrated the offices of town planners and trafifc engineers in county and city councils is not true in my experience (they would not know what primary or secondary position meant, and neither do the majority of people who ride bikes in this country, for that matter).

The fact of the matter is, Franklin ‘cocked up’, but then realised it was too late to correct the blunder once the book had gone into print.

I'd say confusion can arise as some people associate the "primary position" with where you would normally ride your bike (but even that fluctuates depending on the conditions). This misinterpreation is perhaps understandable, but Franklin uses the term to define primary as the default riding position in the centre of the lane, and not where most cyclists spend the majority of their time riding (which is secondary or even further to the left). Once this distinction has been made, it's not a difficult concept to grasp - the real issue is when to deploy primary or secondary.

It is a dreadful error, giving new cyclists the confused idea they can ride down the middle of the carriageway, ‘bold as brass’ and motorists won’t mind a jot.

Not really - Franklin suggests where it is advisable to take the lane/use primary (including how best to do this - negotiation etc). However, the book does not really address the abuse/treatment that you can sometimes expect in these situations. Hurst looks at some of the myths and issues of taking lane in the "Art of Cycling".

Franklin’s ‘Secondary’ should be primary, the position where the cyclist is seen and where the motorist needs to manouver round to pass when he can. Franklin’s ‘Primary’ should be called Secondary, the position taken by the cyclist when there is a hazard in the road ahead.

Whatever nomenclature (dominant or subordinate, central or marginal etc) is used to delineate sharing the lane from taking the lane - it's always going to be open to interpretation on the ground.

 

[jimboalee]

http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/technique-road-positioning-197

Here's BikeRadar's view on the subject.

Note the date of the article. Made me smile.



Here's a snippet for the lazy ones who don't follow the link.

[The primary position is generally the safest for the cyclist, the secondary being an option available to you that helps traffic behind see ahead and overtake you. But you should only adopt the secondary position if you don't put your own safety at risk in the process.
The primary position is especially useful to you at junctions, on narrow roads when there isn't enough room for those behind to overtake (even though they might feel tempted), and in busy, slow-moving traffic. It's precisely in these circumstances that you need the advantages that the primary position confers - space around you to react, high visibility to other road users and, usually, the smoothest road surface. This position is also known as 'taking the lane'.]

The part I have highlighted is telling the newbie/nervous cyclist they should ride in 'primary' unless they think it is safe to ride in 'secondary'. the newbie will take note of this and ride along as fast as they dare in 'primary', at the annoyance of the motoist who are waiting for them to move over to the left.

Please note as well, "the secondary being an option available". An OPTION... It's the place all sensible cyclists spend most of the riding miles.

The second paragraph of this extract is quite true and proper.

Every Sunday morning, the Solihull CC go on their club runs. The route out of town follows a 'National speed limit' dual carriageway. Motorists are accelerating up to the 70 mph limit and watching over their right shoulder to merge onto the Solihull Bypass up to the M42 junction.

Do you think ANY of the Solihull CC riders ride in 'Primary' along that stretch of road? NO. They ride along the left watching over their shoulders for stray cars.
Likewise, when I'm on my way home from work travelling in the opposite direction each busy afternoon, I'm NOWHERE near the 'primary' position. I'm closer to the curb than secondary, keeping out of the way of the 65 -70 mph cars.
Further on, the speed limit reduces to 40 and the road reduces to single carriageway with 12' lanes. Primary? NO. Secondary? YES.
Then I go into urban 30. 10' lanes. Primary? NO. Secondary? YES.

When I'm out-and-about round Birmingham. How many cyclists do I see riding in 'primary' as the 'default' position? Bugger all. They use the 'Normal' road position, and only shift to 'Primary' to stop the motorist behind pushing through.

If I rode in 'Primary' on the roads I describe, I'm sure I would recieve a few shouts of dismay from motorists who have needed to brake to avoid me and then wait to pass me.

 

[hackbike 666]

If I rode in 'Primary' on the roads I describe, I'm sure I would recieve a few shouts of dismay from motorists who have needed to brake to avoid me and then wait to pass me.

It wouldn't be dismay it would be get out off the effing way,that is if they didn't try and take you out with dangerous driving of which happened to me with a black cab in Central London.

Yes I have tried it but I still prefer the way I have always cycled.

 

[brokenbetty]

No one is disputing your description of sensible cycling - it's what all of us do. If there are cars around ride primary if the conditions dictate it, otherwise secondary.

You misunderstood some commonly used terms then criticised what you assumed, based on this misunderstanding, was a common and recommended riding style.

Now you understand you were mistaken, but instead of gracefully acknowledging your error, you are trawling the internet for phrases that might hypothetically lead an inexperienced cyclist to ride in this style so you can continue to argue against it.

Once again, no one rides as you are suggesting, and the only reason you thought they did was a misunderstanding. You are fighting a straw man.

 

[thomas]

If I rode in 'Primary' on the roads I describe, I'm sure I would recieve a few shouts of dismay from motorists who have needed to brake to avoid me and then wait to pass me.

I'm sure you'll agree it's better to be shouted at, than injured or dead. Sensible use of primary position can be a benefit.

 

[tdr1nka]

No-one here is advocating, as Jim seems so keen to believe, single mindedly grinding away at thirteen MPH with a tailback of furious traffic behind us.

Lets just try to be clear one more time, the terms 'Primary' and 'Secondary' refer to our position within the traffic.

There are times when being secondary to traffic is not safe, approaching a run of parked cars, for example.
It is here you would signal your intention to pull out, early and clearly, wait for a following gap in the traffic and pull out to avoid the parked cars, keeping away from the doors as well.
You then continue in this road position until there is enough space to, indicate clearly your intention to pull back into secondary, and let the traffic pass.
I always wave and give a thumbs up as I pull over.

The majority of drivers respect and can cope with this kind of cycling, only the occasional hot head driver takes exception and mostly because they are quite happily and unreservedly ignorant about sharing the road with anyone, let alone cyclists, and everyone is in their way.

It is preferable to remain in primary as long as you are not being an unnecessary obstruction.
The problem is that everyone has varying views as to what is considered an obstruction or what is an otherwise insignificant delay and simple respect for another road user.

 

[jimboalee]

No-one here is advocating, as Jim seems so keen to believe, single mindedly grinding away at thirteen MPH with a tailback of furious traffic behind us.

Lets just try to be clear one more time, the terms 'Primary' and 'Secondary' refer to our position within the traffic.

There are times when being secondary to traffic is not safe, approaching a run of parked cars, for example.
It is here you would signal your intention to pull out, early and clearly, wait for a following gap in the traffic and pull out to avoid the parked cars, keeping away from the doors as well.
You then continue in this road position until there is enough space to, indicate clearly your intention to pull back into secondary, and let the traffic pass.
I always wave and give a thumbs up as I pull over.

The majority of drivers respect and can cope with this kind of cycling, only the occasional hot head driver takes exception and mostly because they are quite happily and unreservedly ignorant about sharing the road with anyone, let alone cyclists, and everyone is in their way.

It is preferable to remain in primary as long as you are not being an unnecessary obstruction.
The problem is that everyone has varying views as to what is considered an obstruction or what is an otherwise insignificant delay and simple respect for another road user.

I have just ridden in such a situation riding back from my son's.

I put out of my head ( totally forgot any notion of 'primary' and 'secondary' ) all that Franklin's book suggests; and rode to a style I adopted years before Franklin thought of his wretched book.

What you have described could have been me this afternoon. Signalling, moving across to the centre out of the doorswing and riding along past the parked cars.
Does it really need a book to ride past a row of parked cars?

As a matter of fact, the roads around my home town were lined with parked cars when I was seven, and I twigged this method of riding past them without needing to study a book.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

I have just ridden in such a situation riding back from my son's.

I put out of my head ( totally forgot any notion of 'primary' and 'secondary' ) all that Franklin's book suggests; and rode to a style I adopted years before Franklin thought of his wretched book.

What you have described could have been me this afternoon. Signalling, moving across to the centre out of the doorswing and riding along past the parked cars.
Does it really need a book to ride past a row of parked cars?

As a matter of fact, the roads around my home town were lined with parked cars when I was seven, and I twigged this method of riding past them without needing to study a book.

Well, maybe you don't. And on past form, you'd misunderstand it anyway. I've never read Cyclecraft myself. But there are plenty of people out there who have found Franklin's book useful and ride better because of it. Just because road sense comes to the likes of you and me naturally doesn't mean that's the case for everybody.

 

[Origamist]

What you have described could have been me this afternoon. Signalling, moving across to the centre out of the doorswing and riding along past the parked cars.
Does it really need a book to ride past a row of parked cars?

As a matter of fact, the roads around my home town were lined with parked cars when I was seven, and I twigged this method of riding past them without needing to study a book.

I live on a road with on-street parking on both sides. If you want to avoid a possible dooring you have to ride just left of the centre line. I watch approx 4 out of every 5 cyclists ride in the door zone everyday. I guess this is because people don't recognise the inherent risk (underestimating the likelihood and consequences of hitting a car door or swerving to avoid one).

Beginners should not have to learn the hard way or rely on so called "common sense" (when riding more centrally is actually counter-intuitive to many) that's why Cyclecraft and Bikeability training provides a useful short-cut to years of experience.

 

[ttcycle]

jimbo I rode primary/secondary just out of experience of what works on the road through commuting day in and day out- came across cyclecraft from being on here - interesting book, if it helps people cycle better and more safely there's no issue for me.

Just admit it - you were confused...no problem!