Best way to deal with bad driving?

[Dan B]

Epic correlation vs causation fail in several places in that article.

The studies it links to are not nearly as conclusive as the authors would like to hope they are, either.

The search identified 1172 potentially relevant records. We independently examined titles, abstracts, and keywords of citations
from electronic databases for eligibility. We obtained the full text of all relevant records and independently assessed whether each met the pre-defined inclusion criteria. No trials met the inclusion criteria for the primary objectives but 35 papers reporting 42 trials (two were unpublished) met the inclusion criteria for the secondary objectives.

 

[Dan B]

[QUOTE 4886981, member: 9609"]As a driver I notice cyclists in HiViz earlier than those not in HiViz, so if it catches my attention it will catch the attention of others, I think it must be a good thing.[/QUOTE]
Supposing that your experience is normal/typical, how often is it the case that by noticing a cyclist earlier you are able to give them more room?

 

[mjr]

Well you found one that proved your point, but there are numerous others that show different. This article names a few, and you'll be able to read it if they don't remove the link here. https://cyclingtips.com/2016/06/does-reflective-and-fluorescent-clothing-make-us-safer/

Others have noted the weaknesses in that reporting and some of the studies it mentions.

I also note that Australia and New Zealand (both mentioned in that article) are in the caboose of cycling casualty reduction, clinging to ineffective measures and failed approaches, some of which are now compulsory by law. They are not good places to cycle. They are now freak cycling environments. Sometimes that may be informative in offering cautionary tales of what not to do, but sometimes they may produce freak results.

I'm sure you can find a study or two that says lights don't help when riding at night either, but there's something to be said for pure logic. I definitely notice a difference in hi vis.

I suggest you may be riding differently in hi-vis somehow, possibly because you believe yourself to be safer, plus you're a sample size of one.

Surely "pure logic" dictates that we look for the best evidence and most reliable reports? And would you expect university researchers, or CyclingTips's Australian editor to provide them?

If your own sense of fashion is more important to you than your own safety, while riding, I suppose that's up to you. But I disagree that we're all fully visible.

Fashion versus safety makes no sense as a comparison because hi-vis is irrelevant to safety.

If you disagree that we're all fully visible can you please explain, how am I invisible?

And I definitely notice a difference wearing hi vis. And as far as making less people want to take up cycling, are you saying we should all pretend at this point, that they shouldn't have to practice any type of safety?

No, but we could do some stuff that actually works like improving infrastructure and providing training, rather than push discouraging placebos.

 

[davidphilips]

Hi vis is so commonplace that it is not useful in getting the wearer noticed, in fact it has the opposite effect. An auction room in Glasgow was robbed of nearly half a million pounds of jewellery a couple of years back. Why do you think the robber wore hi vis to commit this crime?

LOL, Perhaps to use a bike instead of a getaway car?

 

[glasgowcyclist]

LOL, Perhaps to use a bike instead of a getaway car?

Sadly, no. He was picked up by an accomplice in a car.

 

[Tim Hall]

And that's your own opinion. My opinion and that of others on here is that Hi-Viz makes no difference to what drivers see or react to.
In the UK it's known as urban camouflage, because it's just that. So many people wear Hi-Viz (non cyclists) that's it's lost in the general melee.

Note that nicasiri is a new member, joined yesterday, has made four posts, all on this topic and manages to mention a company that supplies HiViz clothing. Jus' sayin'.

 

[nicasiri]

Note that nicasiri is a new member, joined yesterday, has made four posts, all on this topic and manages to mention a company that supplies HiViz clothing. Jus' sayin'.

Yeah, you're right. But I'm not associated with the company. I just think it's a really good product for hi viz. In my opinion, see me wear is better than others because of the contrast and pattern, and that they use true fluorescent dyes, which makes you even more visible. Also, I'm not denying the fact that better infrastructure is necessary, and there are a whole slew of other problems. But to even say hi viz makes no difference is completely bizarre.

Do you see a person walking down the street better in hi viz clothing? Of course you do. Why else would all road workers wear hi viz if not because they're seen better. I think we cyclists need to do all we can to be seen and at the same time advocate for the other problems at hand. In certain countries, they're even making prostitutes wear hi viz clothing. Why would that be - to promote prostitution? I doubt it. This is a bike safety forum. Like I said in another post, people in Holland don't even wear helmets and have the lowest amount of cycling/driver accidents. Why? Because they have better infrastructure. So of course that's the main problem, I'd mentioned that before too.

Also, I question a lot of these naysayer studies on hi viz, because there was a huge backlash against it, by both cyclists who didn't think they should have to do anything more to be seen by drivers, ie it wasn't their responsibility. And those who were designing cycling gear, who were more concerned with fashion over safety.

And, do these studies you're quoting take into account that the majority of cycling deaths occur at night, when of course hi viz doesn't make a difference. Even reflective doesn't help that much night, even though brand designers will tell you it does, so they can keep telling you black jerseys are the best to wear.

Also, the reason I keep posting on this topic is because I posted once on the topic, as an opinion on what helps with bike safety, and you keep insisting it doesn't. I've found it helps.

You say it doesn't work in the UK, but someone on here said as a driver they notice cyclists in hi viz more. When I drive, I notice cyclists in hi viz more, and I'm a cyclist, so I'm also trying to pay attention to all, but definitely you notice them more. I'm not someone whose aim is to hit cyclists, but there are some a***hole drivers on the road who don't care what you're wearing. But for those who aren't a***hole drivers, it definitely helps in making you be seen better.

 

[nicasiri]

Hi vis is so commonplace that it is not useful in getting the wearer noticed, in fact it has the opposite effect. An auction room in Glasgow was robbed of nearly half a million pounds of jewellery a couple of years back. Why do you think the robber wore hi vis to commit this crime?

Although interesting, I'm not sure that proves much, except they were wearing a high visibility vest specifically to maybe look more like a roadworker and blend in that way. But hey, to each his own, I just think to say hi viz doesn't help in making you be seen is a very bizarre statement. And to the other things, I addressed in my reply above, as there are some skewed elements in the studies being quoted by the naysayers as well.

 

[mjr]

It may make one seen earlier. That's not important. It doesn't seem to make one given more room or reduce the risk of being a casualty. Bizarre but true, as often seems to happen in safety topics.

We don't yet know why. There's one theory that motorists see you too early, before they can act on your presence, then they fail to re-notice you at the appropriate time and act. There's another that it makes you look inhuman so drivers' don't intuitively recognise you as a soft squashy human and so ignore you like an invisible gorilla. And there's the idea that they look at you too much and too long and get target fixation. In short, being seen earlier ain't necessarily being seen better.

At least we agree that road design could be better. Let's push for that, not encourage people to wear low contrast yellow jackets.

 

[mjr]

Why else would all road workers wear hi viz if not because they're seen better.

It's a thoughtless application of something that works for railway safety but is unproven for roads, isn't it?

By the way, the East of England Ambulance Service still wear green, Norfolk police still wear mostly black and Norfolk fire still wear mostly mustard, albeit with reflective trim these days. They're not being run over in greater numbers than other counties that have gone the full lemon. Why do you think that might be?

 

[nicasiri]

I do get more room, like I said, I definitely get a wider gerth, but it also depends on the road. On a crowded car packed-city street, there is nowhere for them to move.

As I mentioned, there is some skewed data in studies about casualties, because most cyclist deaths occur at night... Where yes, hi vis won't help. But really either will reflective help that much in my opinion.

I never suggested people wear low contrast yellow jackets. The reason I mentioned see me wear specifically was because of the contrast and patterns. It's not just a regular all yellow hi vis jacket.

I'm not sure if you're talking about along the side of the road or in the road that they wear these things - the police and the ambulance service? If you're talking about alongside the road for an ambulance service, well I think maybe we can attribute that to people's gruesome habit of slowing down to peer at an accident as well, and that traffic in itself moves slower when an accident occurs. But I don't know where you're referring to that they are wearing this specifically, and that it isn't causing issues.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

I do get more room, like I said, I definitely get a wider gerth...

Wearing hi vis has no discernable effect on the passing behaviour of drivers around me; I get the same crappy close passing, left hooks, right crosses and SMIDSY incidents no matter what I wear.

Wearing hi vis clothing won't ever make a good driver out of a bad one.

 

[nicasiri]

Wearing hi vis clothing won't ever make a good driver out of a bad one.

Well that's true. There are a lot of people who don't know how to drive, hence why there are so many car on car accidents as well.

 

[nicasiri]

Let's push for that, not encourage people to wear low contrast yellow jackets.

So I didn't know why you kept toting on about yellow jackets, so I watched some videos of cyclists in London. I realize this may not go over so well, but you guys don't think there's any issues with your cycling habits there at all? Quite honestly, I'm surprised you don't get hit more often.

Call me crazy, but I recognize the fact that a car can kill me, just like when I drive I recognize that a huge truck can smash me to pieces too, and I cycle defensively, aware of that, doing my best to avoid cars.

You all cut cars off everywhere and give them the finger if they call you on it. You ride 2 or 3 next to each other, so cars can't pass you. You run lights, weave through traffic like you own the road. I've never seen anything like it before.

Maybe this isn't everywhere in England, but it seemed to be pretty common in London.

And yes, I did see cyclists wearing bright yellow, mainly at night, and officers wearing it during the day. But let's just say hi vis won't protect a cyclist from getting hit and killed, who completely disregards the laws of physics and traffic lights too.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Well that's true.

Excellent. Since the theme of this thread is how to tackle bad driving, and we are now in agreement that hi vis has nothing to do with that, we can leave this hi vis distraction and get back on topic.

A number of things are needed & here's a few to start with:

• strengthened road policing with a return to greater number of officers on patrol;
• strict application of the 12-point totting up disqualfication process;
• removal of the exceptional hardship clause;
• mandatory retesting of all drivers who seek return of their licence after disqualification.