Bikes for people not interested in cycling

[Slick]

I honestly believe the weather is a red herring used as an excuse by lazy people. I live in an area of higher than average rainfall, For almost three years I've walked to work each day (approximately thirty minute walk). I could count on one hand the amount of times I've actually got wet. I am prepared - I keep an umbrella at home and one at work. I have become good at second guessing the weather and whether or not I need protection from the elements.

Talk about the luck of the Irish. You could count on one hand the number of times I got wet this month including an abandoned commute home as the rain was lifting the tar off the road.

 

[Moodyman]

A lot of people have no understanding of the appliances they use daily and no desire to learn. Their role is that of an end user.

How many UK car drivers understand the oily bits. My wife has been driving for 15 years and not once has she opened the bonnet to do a fluid/oil check.

 

[classic33]

I honestly believe the weather is a red herring used as an excuse by lazy people. I live in an area of higher than average rainfall, For almost three years I've walked to work each day (approximately thirty minute walk). I could count on one hand the amount of times I've actually got wet. I am prepared - I keep an umbrella at home and one at work. I have become good at second guessing the weather and whether or not I need protection from the elements.

People seem to be losing the ability to forecast the weather.

One I've used over the years is the colour of the light. In a town/city, natural light becomes whiter when you've rain in the air, nearby.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

Hobbes, you make some good points, but here (Scotland, UK), the situation is thus, ime:

when someone posts looking for a bike to start off on, maybe to commute a few times a week and the occasional weekend jaunt along a canal or the like.
Invariably, people are directed towards something new, minimum spend approx 500 and above.

Yes, I agree with this, maybe not 500, but at least 400ish for sure, new if possible, second hand only if you've got a friend with bike mechanic knowledge to have a look first.
That's what I would recommend to buy, to a beginner that's only wanting to ride to work or to the shops.
Reasons: there are hills here, we need gears,
I did my flat commute on a 21kg Dutch style single speed for 3 winters, brilliant, never needed to clean it or oil the chain (enclosed), drum brakes.
But if I wanted to nip into Tesco after work I couldn't, because it's up a big hill, when I was on that bike I really had to pick my routes!
That brings me to the next bit about utilitarian cycling here.
I don't know of any commuter that only commutes to work and that's it.
We go to the shops, to visit friends, to the doctors, invariably we go on some social rides - how did I end up on this Alp like mountain, I only wanted to use my bike for cycling to work!
Did I mention there are hills?
The parks where most cycle routes go through are hilly, canal stretches have sharp, steep hills, the wind and the rain blow in your face most days, that's like more hills!
Yes, the old bikes like @SkipdiverJohn often mentions are OK if you're lucky enough to have a flattish commute, but you couldn't make it to the top of the town shopping centre, as a beginner on the bike.
Imo, for people to stick to utilitarian cycling, bikes should be practical for the area in which they ride.
That takes me to another point: see the second hand 5 speed V-brakes commuting bike?
You'd be hard pushed for a bike shop to want to fix it, the money they'd have to charge for labor time could buy you a new second hand bike ... from them.

They just want to get on a bike and ride

but an issue with his bike? Down to the shop. He doesn't see himself as a cyclist.

Aye, that's what I would like too.
Yeahbut: there are no bike shops, if you find one you need to book your bike in, there's a waiting list, they charge you a fortune, they don't listen to you (unless you ride posh bikes), it's rare their repair works, inevitably you need to go back ... but then they are closed!
That reminds me, a new Cycle Republic opened in the middle of town where there are only office blocks, no attractions for the casual shopper.
They open before the offices open, close late.
The staff told me they get mainly repair jobs from the office cycle commuters.
That is probably a factor that would encourage more workers in that area to cycle to their work, imo.

 

[tyred]

A lot of people have no understanding of the appliances they use daily and no desire to learn. Their role is that of an end user.

How many UK car drivers understand the oily bits. My wife has been driving for 15 years and not once has she opened the bonnet to do a fluid/oil check.

My sister seized a Fiesta once due to lack of oil when it had developed an oil leak - she had had it serviced 4,000 miles before so it wasn't due a service, didn't think the pool of oil underneath it in the morning was important and thought the flashing oil light was something to get checked out when the next service was due....poor car.

 

[classic33]

I've used a pair of these,

No umbrella though. And currently have one of these,

Picture taken the day after riding it over the Pennines from Irlam.
One local ride done a few times,

The first and last three miles feature in almost any local ride.

Laughed at when I said where I intended riding it, on what should have been a test ride in London. You want a cycle for the shopping, you'd be hard pressed to get a better load carrier than the second.

 

[steveindenmark]

I haven't ridden a Dutch bike but I bet they weigh a ton so they'd be useless in the hilly parts of Britain.

If they had hills dont you think they could design a bike to get up them

The Dutch are bike making geniuses. The "Dutch" bike is designed for a job and not only does it do it well. They last for years.

 

[snorri]

The question is why?

Because in the UK generations of people have been brought up to see bicycles as toys for children or performance machines for sports people, and even the toys for children aspect appears to be dwindling as parents consider the roads too dangerous for their offspring.
Our cycle shops are often staffed by cycle sport enthusiasts who are keen to sell performance machines for sport enthusiasts and have no knowledge of utility cycling. They see nothing wrong with having to lubricate and tweak gears etc at regular intervals, in fact for them the maintenance work is part of the game, unlike the utility cyclist who just wants a bike that will keep going for evermore.
A large proportion of the UK population have never seen bicycles used to any great extent for utility purposes and are quite unable to negotiate with cycle shop staff for a bicycle appropriate for utility needs. One friend wanted to start cycling to work and described the route and distance to the shop owner who sold her a bike without mudguards. I'm sure she didn't notice the time saved in getting to and from work without the weight of mudguards, but she did notice the mud and cow dung splashed on her person, a normal feature of cycling on rural roads without 'guards on the wheels.
For many in the UK the lifetime of a bicycle is the time it takes for the derailleur to go out of adjustment from new, the user gets sick of it, it goes to the back of the shed until the chain solidifies with rust then is seen as irreparable and goes for scrap.
The UK public see cycle sport on tv but are blind to the army of support vehicles and personnel which follows the parade and is required to keep high performance bikes on the road. They are disappointed and disillusioned on discovering they have to learn to be cycle mechanics, something that comes as a shock to people who have been driving many thousands of miles in their cars without opening the bonnet other than to top up the screen wash liquid. It is extraordinary that their simple new bicycle should demand more maintenance attention than their considerably more sophisticated motor vehicle with all its bells and whistles.
On one tour I had to put my bike in for repair in Germany, when I went to collect it the shop owner looked a bit worried and said he regretted he had no direct replacement in stock for my worn out chain wheel but could supply and fit another chain wheel immediately that would be a little heavier but would be cheaper and last longer. It annoyed me to discover that I had paid extra money for this short lived chain wheel when buying my new bike!
Cycle shops will probably say they sell what the public want to buy, but unfortunately with utility cycling reaching such a low ebb in the UK it is all but impossible to get unbiased advice from anyone before buying a new bike, there are so few utility cyclists about these days.
It's grim I tell you.

Edited, minor corrections

 

[nickyboy]

Cycling used to be utilitarian in nature in UK but inevitably as we have got richer we have adopted other means of transport

The question is really why has it reduced in UK but why hasn't it reduced in Netherlands.

Netherlands is flat. It's also significantly drier and warmer than the UK on average. We can spend whatever we like on infrastructure to match the Dutch but you can't overcome topography and climate hurdles. It's no surprise that the one city in UK that goes some way matching Dutch utilitarian cycling, Cambridge, is very flat and also in the warmest/driest part of the country

 

[All uphill]

Not disputing that. But I'd like to know why that is the starting point?
Is it the Bike to Work scheme allows people to buy a "free" bike?
Is it that there are not many utility/functional bikes (at least in comparison to NL) that they have nothing to base their target on?
Is it marketing? Once you start to look, especially online, you start getting hit with all kinds of info and ads. How many people buy things (not just bikes) with features they do not need because the marketing told them they "need" it? Starting off, people are more more susceptible to such messages.


One of the points made in the article that my anecdotal experience backs up is that there are a lot of regular Dutch people on bikes who know next to nothing about fixing a bike. So the question is why such a culture difference? Perhaps one of the reasons is that the bikes are pretty much indestructible and tyres are built for protection not speed?
Is it that there is such an infrastructure in NL to deal with this (repair shops at most train stations that will fix basics) because of the density of regular people on bikes?

In fairness, that's everywhere. Until a recent rebuilding of the local train station I could walk down, hand over a 20 and point out the bike I wanted stolen to be delivered to me personally. Bike theft happens everywhere!


That's fair enough.
Sometimes I wonder if the people asking the questions actually know what they are asking about.

I used to sell things to people and in my experience, when people picked up ideas of what was "best" from external sources rather than their own experience, they rarely knew what they were looking for, or at least didn't get the value of their purchase.

What we never get is any feedback on are the numbers of people who go out, get a new bike and give up after a while.

Here's the thing - the Dutch market is full of early adopters. New technology, new concepts - they love them. Yet the majority of the population ride around on bikes that many here on this forum would not consider, or indeed advise someone to buy. Why?

I understand the arguments you are making, I guess my question is why are those arguments so powerful in one country and not another?

Don't get me wrong, people here buy good bikes too. I recall being in a specialist shop as a lady was picking up her brand new Santos Rohloff Touring bike with lots of bells and whistles. Cost? 4k. I asked her where she was going for her first tour to be told that it was for doing the boodschappen - the shopping!

In any case, I believe that there won't be a significant voice for the cycling community until the voices of the regular person on a bike join with those of the cyclists. And those people need bikes!

I asked my Dutch son how he chooses a bike. He said he buys something the right size for 100 euro and then uses it until it gets stolen or won't move. I'm amazed how long his old steel clunkers run with broken spokes, creaking bottom bracket, and wonky pedals.

Sample of one I know, but his grandmother buys a new Gazelle every five years.

Purely functional tools to both of them.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

new if possible, second hand only if you've got a friend with bike mechanic knowledge to have a look first.

I'd agree if buying second hand to have a bike mechanically checked over. But there is still a difference between the NL attitude and the UK attitude. Here it's very much a "so long as it works, I'll take it". It's probably down to the differences in the bikes - hub gearing, drum brakes, dynamo hubs, tough tyres as opposed to the usual UK offerings.

That's what I would recommend to buy, to a beginner that's only wanting to ride to work or to the shops.
Reasons: there are hills here, we need gears,
I did my flat commute on a 21kg Dutch style single speed for 3 winters, brilliant, never needed to clean it or oil the chain (enclosed), drum brakes.
But if I wanted to nip into Tesco after work I couldn't, because it's up a big hill, when I was on that bike I really had to pick my routes!
That brings me to the next bit about utilitarian cycling here.
I don't know of any commuter that only commutes to work and that's it.
We go to the shops, to visit friends, to the doctors, invariably we go on some social rides - how did I end up on this Alp like mountain, I only wanted to use my bike for cycling to work!
Did I mention there are hills?
The parks where most cycle routes go through are hilly, canal stretches have sharp, steep hills, the wind and the rain blow in your face most days, that's like more hills!
Yes, the old bikes like @SkipdiverJohn often mentions are OK if you're lucky enough to have a flattish commute, but you couldn't make it to the top of the town shopping centre, as a beginner on the bike.
Imo, for people to stick to utilitarian cycling, bikes should be practical for the area in which they ride.

I fully understand the hills!
And that is the huge physical difference between there and here. However, I believe there is far too much emphasis put on weight in the biking community. If I want to ride 200 km in a day, then weight is important. If I want a functional bike and to get fit, weight is far less an issue. It may be an issue in the beginning, but with a bit of practise, development of stamina it becomes less - in my own opinion.
Everybody has their own choices to make.
I'm not a mechanical expert, but surely it's reasonable to use a hub gear with a greater range than would be typical on a Dutch bike?

That takes me to another point: see the second hand 5 speed V-brakes commuting bike?
You'd be hard pushed for a bike shop to want to fix it, the money they'd have to charge for labor time could buy you a new second hand bike ... from them.

Yeahbut: there are no bike shops, if you find one you need to book your bike in, there's a waiting list, they charge you a fortune, they don't listen to you (unless you ride posh bikes), it's rare their repair works, inevitably you need to go back ... but then they are closed!

It's exactly the same here. The bigger bike shops will want to sell you a new bike and if you haven't bought your bike from them it's to the back of the queue with you!
But... there are bike shops that specialise in second hand bikes and repairing such machines. They are at least a little friendlier. And, as I said before, most train stations have some kind of a basic bike repair service.
But again, this comes back to bike design too - the Dutch bikes will run much further and longer without tune-ups and adjustments.

That reminds me, a new Cycle Republic opened in the middle of town where there are only office blocks, no attractions for the casual shopper.
They open before the offices open, close late.
The staff told me they get mainly repair jobs from the office cycle commuters.
That is probably a factor that would encourage more workers in that area to cycle to their work, imo.

Something like this could be the future. A different approach to cycling.

There's a reason why so many Dutch people cycle so many clunker bikes. Hills, or the lack of them, is about the only physical reason I can think of. The rest is attitude. OK, the infrastructure certainly helps too. But that will only come when cycling is seen as a mainstream way to travel as opposed to a recreational/sporting pursuit.
If, and it's a big if, that attitude could start to take hold in the UK, more people would be using more bikes, giving all people on bikes a greater, louder and more powerful voice.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Because in the UK generations of people have been brought up to see bicycles as toys for children or performance machines for sports people, and even the toys for children aspect appears to be dwindling as parents consider the roads too dangerous for their offspring.

That appears to be true.

Our cycle shops are often staffed by cycle sport enthusiasts who are keen to sell performance machines for sport enthusiasts and have no knowledge of utility cycling. They see nothing wrong with having to lubricate and tweak gears etc at regular intervals, in fact for them the maintenance work is part of the game, unlike the utility cyclist who just wants a bike that will keep going for evermore.

There are bike shops like that here, too. Fortunately, there are also shops specialising in the sale and servicing/repair of second hand bikes. An entrepreneurial opportunity, perhaps?

A large proportion of the UK population have never seen bicycles used to any great extent for utility purposes and are quite unable to negotiate with cycle shop staff for a bicycle appropriate for utility needs. One friend wanted to start cycling to work and described the route and distance to the shop owner who sold her a bike without mudguards. I'm sure she didn't notice the time saved in getting to and from work without the weight of mudguards, but she did notice the mud and cow dung splashed on her person, a normal feature of cycling on rural roads without 'guards on the wheels.
For many in the UK the lifetime of a bicycle is the time it takes for the derailleur to go out of adjustment from new, the user gets sick of it, it goes to the back of the shed until the chain solidifies with rust then is seen as irreparable and goes for scrap.

Bingo!
My original post was about how such an attitude is often (not always!) perpetuated here and on other forums.

The UK public see cycle sport on tv but are blind to the army of support vehicles and personnel which follows the parade and is required to keep high performance bikes on the road. They are disappointed and disillusioned on discovering they have to learn to be cycle mechanics, something that comes as a shock to people who have been driving many thousands of miles in their cars without opening the bonnet other than to top up the screen wash liquid. It is extraordinary that their simple new bicycle should demand more maintenance attention than their considerably more sophisticated motor vehicle with all its bells and whistles.

I understand, but it is less of an issue here and road cycling is a very big sport in NL.

Cycle shops will probably say they sell what the public want to buy, but unfortunately with utility cycling reaching such a low ebb in the UK it is all but impossible to get unbiased advice from anyone before buying a new bike, there are so few utility cyclists about these days.

It's very much the same here, in the big or specialised bike shops. Generate demand and the supply will follow.
That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Cycling used to be utilitarian in nature in UK but inevitably as we have got richer we have adopted other means of transport

The question is really why has it reduced in UK but why hasn't it reduced in Netherlands.

Netherlands is flat. It's also significantly drier and warmer than the UK on average. We can spend whatever we like on infrastructure to match the Dutch but you can't overcome topography and climate hurdles. It's no surprise that the one city in UK that goes some way matching Dutch utilitarian cycling, Cambridge, is very flat and also in the warmest/driest part of the country

I'll accept the hills, but..... surely it's possible to have a bike as reliable as a Dutch bike with gearing to suit hills? Not mountains, just hills.
The weather, I think, is more psychological.
I used to be one of those who'd avoid cold and wet like the plague. Then I realised it wasn't so bad. Then it became less bad and just a different aspect to cycling. With the right mindset, it can be overcome.
One thing about the Dutch, is that they are very practical. They'll have very practical outerwear to get to the pub in winter, but once inside, they'll drop the outerwear to display the designer gear.
The fashion displays on Geordie Shore (especially in winter!) always used to raise incredulous cries here!

And.....by your own admission, utility cycling used to be more popular. Perhaps the weather has changed, but the topography hasn't.

 

[Blue Hills]

whereas the British are xenophobic, selfish and ignorant, which is why we were so easily conned into voting to leave the EU.

That's an incredibly sweeping statement in so many ways.
Would you say the same about any other country on the planet?
The greatest resistance to utility cycling I have come across (as opposed to look at me me in my fetching mamil kit) is in southern italy. *Won't bore you with the multiplicity of reasons given and implied not to pedal.
* And as you insisted on a gratuitous brexit reference, casual unchallenged racism to boot.

 

[Blue Hills]

I know!
And I've seen many of your posts where you've gone to the effort of suggesting specific bikes for the poster.
But.... it's not the norm and the advice is rarely taken.
The question is why?

Image? Folk more concerned about how they look/come across to others in their chosen world/clique than how they feel in themselves riding whatever?. The idea that new is always best, that manufacturers and marketeers are devoted solely to just making things better and better for us?