Brompton Paint Issue?

[Cycleops]

Be interesting to learn from @Justinitus how the matter was resolved.

 

[Justinitus]

Be interesting to learn from @Justinitus how the matter was resolved.

Hi Cycleops. Well, a new frame arrived at the dealer back in June and they swapped all the parts over. Sadly on their test ride the paint came off in exactly the same place - worse actually! So they had to swap all the parts back onto the original frame (Bromptons request) and ordered up yet another replacement frame - which they‘re still waiting for.

I’ve also been waiting since late August for a replacement folding pedal - Brompton have them in stock online (or did) but apparently not available for dealers. It’s on back order.

I actually bought a 2 speed as well earlier in the summer from a different shop (about the same time @Fab Foodie did) but on delivery it had 3 areas of paint damage all the way down to bare metal (one bigger than 50p piece) plus significant play in the handlepost hinge. I just returned the bike for refund.

 

[Cycleops]

Brompton have really dropped the ball on their paint finish. Seems like they have changed something to save a few bob and it's ending up costing them dear. Things like this severely dent a makers reputation.
Advice would be for anyone contemplating buying to steer clear until they have sorted out the issue.
At least Justinitus can be assured they'll do the right thing but sounds like that might take some time and he won't get any recompense for the time he hasn't had use of the bike.

 

[rogerzilla]

You can put a new bearing in a folding pedal with a bit of filing and some strong bearing retainer compound. Even if it fails soon, it's a cheap fix - but IME a half decent SKF bearing will last longer than the original unbranded bearing.

 

[Justinitus]

Brompton have really dropped the ball on their paint finish. Seems like they have changed something to save a few bob and it's ending up costing them dear. Things like this severely dent a makers reputation.
Advice would be for anyone contemplating buying to steer clear until they have sorted out the issue.
At least Justinitus can be assured they'll do the right thing but sounds like that might take some time and he won't get any recompense for the time he hasn't had use of the bike.

We’ve been using the bike throughout, so not been without it. Several more bits of paint have come off since - the area pictured in my first post is now all bare metal.

 

[berlinonaut]

Brompton have really dropped the ball on their paint finish. Seems like they have changed something to save a few bob and it's ending up costing them dear. Things like this severely dent a makers reputation.

Always interesting to read what conclusions people are confindently drawing from nonexistent information... I's assume that there are two to three possibilities which may be a single or combined root cause:
1. Brompton have scaled their production to almost twice as much than before within roughly a year. This has often the effect that quality goes down temporarily due to the higher volume and stress in combination with an underestmated relevance of qa.
2. For that scaling process Brompton needed a huge lot of new workers. To gain qualified workers in that amount in a short timeframe is demanding, to fully integrate and onboard them to the existing quality level is typically close to impossible. Which has consequences for the quality of the output.
3. I may be possible that they have changed something around the powder coating process technically, either innovation wise or there may exist new laws regarding processes or materials - don't know. Any change in processes and materials inherits the danger of quality issues. If the did such a change it may have been motivated by efficiency and cost, but not necessarily.

Thus I would say the statement "they have changed something to save a few bob" is not adequate if you do not have internal knowledge that we others lack. What's for sure is that there are currently changing times at Brompton in many areas and aspects and there are hickups and negative effects visible all over the place. They seem to be massively challenged, if it is just the effect of massive scaling or also a cultural and attitude change regarding more effiency and more revenue (in ignorance of quality and customers) is at least to me unclear.

 

[berlinonaut]

You can put a new bearing in a folding pedal with a bit of filing and some strong bearing retainer compound. Even if it fails soon, it's a cheap fix - but IME a half decent SKF bearing will last longer than the original unbranded bearing.

As I currently do have a folding pedal lying around that is eol: Do you have a link to fitting bearing or a type number?

 

[Cycleops]

I don’t know if @berlinonaut has ever worked in a manufacturing industry, I suspect not, but if he had he would know that cost saving measures and changes in processes are implemented all the time. Some work some don’t. Some end up saving costs, others end up costing the company money to rectify their mistakes. This is usually driven by the ‘bean counters’.
Of course I don’t have inside knowledge of what might have happened to affect the paint at Brompton but you can bet that after having no problem for years in this area and then suddenly there’s an issue you can bet something had changed, whether that be in the paint itself or the way it’s applied or who applies it or maybe all three.
I used to work for a manufacturer who changed cotton in their product to polypropylene because it would save them money even though it was a tiny part of the finished product. I won’t go into technical details but it was a disaster as polypropylene doesn’t stretch as much as cotton, leading to have to replace goods.
I’m sure in time the reason Brompton are having issues with paint will be revealed so until then we can only surmise but cost is a fairly good bet.

 

[berlinonaut]

I don’t know if @berlinonaut has ever worked in a manufacturing industry, I suspect not,

Wrong suspicion.

but if he had he would know that cost saving measures and changes in processes are implemented all the time. Some work some don’t. Some end up saving costs, others end up costing the company money to rectify their mistakes. This is usually driven by the ‘bean counters’.

Platitudes and generalisations may be generally true but not necessarily for a specific case.

Of course I don’t have inside knowledge of what might have happened to affect the paint at Brompton but you can bet that after having no problem for years in this area and then suddenly there’s an issue you can bet something had changed, whether that be in the paint itself or the way it’s applied or who applies it or maybe all three.

Confusing outcome with the root cause does not help. We do know the outcome and we do know the the outcome would not have changed if not something within the process would have changed. Surprise. But we do not know what exactly has changed, that's my whole point. Due to the obvious scaling of production we can be pretty sure that "who applies it" holds true as a point of change and we can be pretty sure that "the process of painting" will have changed in one way or another as well (but we have absolutely no information in what way). The rest is pure speculation. For one there is a difference between coincidence and correlation and second it is a tough bet to conclude from a given outcome alone directly and precisely back to the motivation and to claim to know it. Not possible seriously in my opinion and if you still do it a clear overrating of own cleverness.

 

[rogerzilla]

As I currently do have a folding pedal lying around that is eol: Do you have a link to fitting bearing or a type number?

Yes, it's a 62032RS. The existing bearing is retained by a lip which was peened over after the bearing was fitted. This can be filed off or carefully opened back up.

The old bearing is then drifted out using a large socket (as it's going in the bin, it doesn't matter if the removal force goes through the bearing).

Clean up the recess in the pedal, apply strong bearing retaining compound and press in the new bearing (I used a large vice, and force must be applied to the outer race or the whole bearing, not just the inner race). After curing, this should hold it sufficiently, especially as it is a tight interference fit. If you chose to open up the lip rather than file it off, that is now hammered back into shape to retain the bearing as extra insurance.

 

[berlinonaut]

Yes, it's a 62032RS.

At less than 2€ to under 4€ for the bearing that's definitively worth a try! Thanks for the info - another project on the list for the upcoming winter months... Also good to know that I could rise my cadence more or less unlimted - according to SKF the bearing is specified for up to 12000 rpm.

 

[bonzobanana]

Very disappointing to hear of a reduction in quality at Brompton. I don't remember these issues when they had all frames and forks sent to Wales for painting so assume this situation has been caused by bringing painting in-house but not to the same standards as done in Wales. I would say they need to review their procedures for painting.

This is actually a common situation of sorts as when production of bikes moved out of Taiwan into mainland China paint was often worse, over the years it improved then when production moved out of mainland China to countries like Vietnam and Cambodia again people would complain about their paint chipping off.

I know fuji-ta have a great paint adhering process and that is by phosphate dipping their frames both steel and aluminium I think. It gives it a galvanishing/zinc plating finish which helps paint adhere very well as well as protecting the interior of the frame from corrosion. They do this on super cheap steel robot made frames that about 3 years ago they sold at $4-5 each so cannot be an expensive process although of course fuji-ta are the world's largest bicycle manufacturer by volume so they have huge benefits of scale.

The worst thing to do is not store frames and forks correctly before painting as I believe corrosion may start even if not visually seen where surface particles are starting to loosen and corrode and of course painting those means the paint will just chip off easily. Surface preparation is critical to painting. I used to be a paint sprayer for military and commerical aviation parts and surface preparation was where I spent most of my time.

The longer Brompton allows this to go on the more damage this will do to the brand. Every dealer and customer should pressurise them to improve this and rejection of poorly painted frames in the long term will benefit the brand. There is absolutely no reason in 2021 you can't have a steel frame with a fantastic quality long lasting paint finish and at Brompton pricing you should expect a premium paint finish.

 

[rogerzilla]

They did have issues when painting was done in Wales - my 2008 bike would have been. What I don't understand is why some bikes - the ones with good paint - have a black undercoat and other - the flaky ones - don't. Someone is cutting corners somewhere. It's not just Brompton: Moultons, at least the affordable ones made in Stratford-upon-Avon, are powdercoated, and it can be woeful. My TSR could really do with a respray.

 

[berlinonaut]

Very disappointing to hear of a reduction in quality at Brompton. I don't remember these issues when they had all frames and forks sent to Wales for painting so assume this situation has been caused by bringing painting in-house but not to the same standards as done in Wales. I would say they need to review their procedures for painting.
(...)
The longer Brompton allows this to go on the more damage this will do to the brand. Every dealer and customer should pressurise them to improve this and rejection of poorly painted frames in the long term will benefit the brand. There is absolutely no reason in 2021 you can't have a steel frame with a fantastic quality long lasting paint finish and at Brompton pricing you should expect a premium paint finish.

Oh, dear! Once more there seems to be a total confusion regarding cause and correlation as well as a total misinterpretation of failure numbers plus a ignorance in terms of things where we lack information.
First: The move to the new factory was in January 2016, the change of the paining from Wales to in house was shortly thereafter. More than five years later we see a small number of issues on the paint of new Bromptons. Two cases to be exact, one of them looks like a massively gone wrong paintjob, even on the replacement frame, the other more like a mechanical issue in treatment of the bike. Since moving the painting roughly 350.000 Bromptons have been produced. Basically two paint jobs, that made it to the customer did go wrong that we know about.

This is neither a high failure rate nor can I see any correlation between moving the painting in house and painting issues.

Regarding the paining in Wales: We do not know anything about failure rates back then though there is some knowledge that issues existed. What is obvious that this off-site painting created much overhead and a massive logistics issue. I bet that limitiation in colors (initioally only black or red main frame, extremities always black) had also to do with easening up the complexity in terms of logistics and failure handling.
We know, that with the change from gloss to mate at the beginning of 2009 the paint got way less robust and that there were issues in the beginning. We know, that Brompton had to stop the raw laquer models, that were invented in 2005, for a couple of years beween ~2008 and ~2012 because of quality issues.

We do know that at least two frames with quality issues in painting made it to the customer. We do not know what the usual failure rate is with powder coating in general (apart from Brompton), we do not know what Brompton's q/a-processes look like and we have absolutely no idea how their failure rate is (how many frames get refused by q/a) now, how it was at "Wales-times" and how it evolved. We do not know if the case of the turkish green bike could have been spotted already in the factory.
We do know that Brompton accepts the issues and does replace the frame. We do know, that the number of special editions and freaky colors rised massively since the move of the painting in house: Flame laquer, bolt blue, black laquer, stardust and other colors simply did not exist in earlier years. The small batches of special paint jobs for special editions are probably easier to handle in house as well. In other words: Paining in house brought more flexibility, less complexity, less logistic issues, less overhead and probably lower cost. If the company in Wales would be able to handle the current production volumina of 100.000+ bikes per year at all is an open question, too.

So while there are issues I am a bit baffled by the conclusions you draw from very limited information in ignorance of a lot of other factors and contraints.

 

[berlinonaut]

Moultons, at least the affordable ones made in Stratford-upon-Avon, are powdercoated, and it can be woeful. My TSR could really do with a respray.

The paint job on Moultons is shameful at best, at least from my experience. I do own two TSRs and a Bridgestone Moulton. The older one of the TSRs (a very early one in light blue) is okish but not brilliant whereas the the newer one (racing green one from around maybe 2010) gets paint chips already when just look at it sharply. I know a lot of Moulton owners who suffer from similar paint issues with their bikes - the quality of the paint job is just shameful, at least on the Pashley ones. My Bridgestone Moulton is the same, despite being produced in Japan instead of at Pashley or Moulton themselves.