Brompton Question

Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
Here’s the latest survey if you want to make your feelings known.

Out of 48 questions I’d estimate that 5 or 6 directly or indirectly reference production location, production quality and paying extra for that perceived quality.

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/SZRSSYF

I wonder why Brompton doesn't offer a modern multi-speed (more than three) gear hub, rather than pratting around with chain pushers.

They obviously accept more than three speeds are required, because they offer six.

Perhaps it's weight.

I've only ever handled an Alfine 11 and a Rohloff out of the box.

Both are heavy lumps.
 

sheddy

Legendary Member
Location
Suffolk
The plastic seat post sleeve for fixing seat height - can it be fitted to all bromptons, regardless of age ?
 
Why on earth should one replace the chain pusher? Also you seem not to be aware that the cable design has changed already back in 2017. With the newer version of the dogleg that got invented along with the new shifters the cable is much easier to change (and it is now a standard cable as well) and the locknut you mention is no longer there. Plus you only had to buy a new locknut in case you managed to loose or damage the old one (which obviously is not the standard/normal case).

Apart from that: While I did it change the cables with the old version a couple of times it has always been due to modifying the bike, not because it was necessary. Buying the correct length of cable is not too hard as for one they provide the preconfigured cables for each bar version (are you really surprised that different bar heights need cables of different length? :ohmy:), all you have to know is which bars you have. Of course you can always buy the longest version and cut it down as you need it (as you would need to do with any other bike). So you do complain about a level of comfort that you do not need to make use of and that other bike companies do not even offer. So I think your rant does not only go over the top - it is completely misleading and furthermore (even if it was correct contentwise) targeting a system that is out of production for 3,5 years already.

It's a rant for them designing it badly in the first place! You're forgetting bikes shops still have to maintain these badly designed bikes as customers won't want to fork out for upgrading to the latest version.
 
I wonder why Brompton doesn't offer a modern multi-speed (more than three) gear hub, rather than pratting around with chain pushers.

They obviously accept more than three speeds are required, because they offer six.

Perhaps it's weight.

I had a 6 speed hub on a Brompton for a while. Slightly heavier but not a major issue. It certainly looks much neater and far more intuitive for an everyday person using the bike, rather than faffing around with 2 levers. A lot of people don't understand gears, so the simpler a system is, the better.
 

berlinonaut

Veteran
Location
Berlin Germany
I had a 6 speed hub on a Brompton for a while. Slightly heavier but not a major issue. It certainly looks much neater and far more intuitive for an everyday person using the bike, rather than faffing around with 2 levers. A lot of people don't understand gears, so the simpler a system is, the better.
I am wondering what kind of hub this was? I am not aware of any 6 speed geared hub. :wacko:
 

berlinonaut

Veteran
Location
Berlin Germany
I wonder why Brompton doesn't offer a modern multi-speed (more than three) gear hub, rather than pratting around with chain pushers.

They obviously accept more than three speeds are required, because they offer six.

Perhaps it's weight.

I've only ever handled an Alfine 11 and a Rohloff out of the box.

Both are heavy lumps.
They used to offer the S/A Sprinter hub with five speeds back in the nineties. When S/A went bust in 2000 Brompton suffered from a trauma as they only just managed to get alternative geared hubs from Sachs before running out of hub stock. Unfortunately only the Sachs 3-speed hub fitted into the Brompton rear frame, no other geared hub from Sachs and none from any other manufacturer. They learned their lesson to have a second line of defense and liked the idea of being able to switch between Sachs/SRAM and S/A als their source for hubs (and used both in parallel between 2005 and 2009). Today the situation has changed as SRAM has stopped making geared hubs, so Bromton is totally dependent from S/A again. The limitation is the OLD of the rear frame - being 112mm it is much slicker than any standard and leaves not much choice. S/A offer a five speed of that size (SRF5w) but it has a spread of only 256% and gear steps of 33% - so in comparison to the BWR no gain apart from being able to use a single-lever but a couple of things that are worse.
S/A also do offer an 8-speed hub that can fit into the Brompton rear frame w/o spreading the frame (XRF8w). Problem here is that it is about 1kg heavier, only the inner six gears are nicely spread and the hub is very sensitive to misallignment (which at the same time happens easily). The range is 325%, so not much more than the BWR. And obviously it is more expensive as well. Plus it will create huge support cost due to it's tendency to eat gear cables for breakfast which will as a consequence have weird shifting behaviour.

Obviously you can use a Schlumpf drive as well but this adds cost, weight and complexity (but has been offered by Brompton until 2008 or so after S/A went bust). So if you think about it the BWR 6-speed may seem quirky but is in fact a good solution, simple, cheap, light and still with a decent range. Not to forget that the first generation of 6 speeds, using the SRAM 3-speed as a basis, only offered 225% spread (in comparison to the 179% of the 3-speed), only the invention of the BWR (which was dedicatedly developed for Brompton) pushed it to 30x%, so into the range of the 8-speeds (which btw. did not exist yet when Brompton's drailleur system was invented).

Basically any other hub will need a wider rear frame then Brompton offers today, still 8-speed hubs (independent from the manufacturer) do not offer more range than the BWR but cost more and weight at least a kilo more at higher cost. Personally I've ridden most the possible hubs in a Brompton including the various 8 speed hubs and the Rohloff. My favorite is the 2-speed (due to nippyness and weight), the BWR modified to 9 speed (sufficient range, nice gear steps, low weight, low friction) and the Rohloff (bombproof and more than you need but expensive and heavy, so not for everyday usage). Of the 8 speeds I would prefer the Nexus premium over the S/A but still do not like it too much. The most sold version in the UK is the three speed as obviously most riders seem to consider it as sufficient and a good choice and compromise. Personally I don't like it too much but for Brompton's vision "urban transport" it is probably a good fit.

An offer for a different new multi-gear hub would create an immense layer of complexity in production and support cost (due to the rear frame), make the bike even more expensive and still only serve a fraction of the users and not fit Brompton's vision of the bike. Those who really want a different hub are well served by various aftermarket offerings from 3rd parties and while the demand is there it is far far from being massive - not relevant for mass production and the downsides overrule the positives. Possibly if Brompton ever go for disc brakes they may rethink the hub lineup as well as then they would have to change the frame anyway.

However: The cheapest way to make the gear situation better would be to add a third sprocket to the six speed - a little more range, very nice, even gear steps, no modifications to the bike apart from an additional sprocket and a modified shifter and thus cheap to do, especially as an offer from the factory. However: I doubt that they will do that.
 

Tenkaykev

Guru
Location
Poole
They used to offer the S/A Sprinter hub with five speeds back in the nineties. When S/A went bust in 2000 Brompton suffered from a trauma as they only just managed to get alternative geared hubs from Sachs before running out of hub stock. Unfortunately only the Sachs 3-speed hub fitted into the Brompton rear frame, no other geared hub from Sachs and none from any other manufacturer. They learned their lesson to have a second line of defense and liked the idea of being able to switch between Sachs/SRAM and S/A als their source for hubs (and used both in parallel between 2005 and 2009). Today the situation has changed as SRAM has stopped making geared hubs, so Bromton is totally dependent from S/A again. The limitation is the OLD of the rear frame - being 112mm it is much slicker than any standard and leaves not much choice. S/A offer a five speed of that size (SRF5w) but it has a spread of only 256% and gear steps of 33% - so in comparison to the BWR no gain apart from being able to use a single-lever but a couple of things that are worse.
S/A also do offer an 8-speed hub that can fit into the Brompton rear frame w/o spreading the frame (XRF8w). Problem here is that it is about 1kg heavier, only the inner six gears are nicely spread and the hub is very sensitive to misallignment (which at the same time happens easily). The range is 325%, so not much more than the BWR. And obviously it is more expensive as well. Plus it will create huge support cost due to it's tendency to eat gear cables for breakfast which will as a consequence have weird shifting behaviour.

Obviously you can use a Schlumpf drive as well but this adds cost, weight and complexity (but has been offered by Brompton until 2008 or so after S/A went bust). So if you think about it the BWR 6-speed may seem quirky but is in fact a good solution, simple, cheap, light and still with a decent range. Not to forget that the first generation of 6 speeds, using the SRAM 3-speed as a basis, only offered 225% spread (in comparison to the 179% of the 3-speed), only the invention of the BWR (which was dedicatedly developed for Brompton) pushed it to 30x%, so into the range of the 8-speeds (which btw. did not exist yet when Brompton's drailleur system was invented).

Basically any other hub will need a wider rear frame then Brompton offers today, still 8-speed hubs (independent from the manufacturer) do not offer more range than the BWR but cost more and weight at least a kilo more at higher cost. Personally I've ridden most the possible hubs in a Brompton including the various 8 speed hubs and the Rohloff. My favorite is the 2-speed (due to nippyness and weight), the BWR modified to 9 speed (sufficient range, nice gear steps, low weight, low friction) and the Rohloff (bombproof and more than you need but expensive and heavy, so not for everyday usage). Of the 8 speeds I would prefer the Nexus premium over the S/A but still do not like it too much. The most sold version in the UK is the three speed as obviously most riders seem to consider it as sufficient and a good choice and compromise. Personally I don't like it too much but for Brompton's vision "urban transport" it is probably a good fit.

An offer for a different new multi-gear hub would create an immense layer of complexity in production and support cost (due to the rear frame), make the bike even more expensive and still only serve a fraction of the users and not fit Brompton's vision of the bike. Those who really want a different hub are well served by various aftermarket offerings from 3rd parties and while the demand is there it is far far from being massive - not relevant for mass production and the downsides overrule the positives. Possibly if Brompton ever go for disc brakes they may rethink the hub lineup as well as then they would have to change the frame anyway.

However: The cheapest way to make the gear situation better would be to add a third sprocket to the six speed - a little more range, very nice, even gear steps, no modifications to the bike apart from an additional sprocket and a modified shifter and thus cheap to do, especially as an offer from the factory. However: I doubt that they will do that.

Many thanks once again Berlinonaut. Having the pros and cons of the practicalities so succinctly explained by someone who has actually "Walked the walk" is invaluable 👍🍺
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
The third party makers seem able to make various gear hubs fit with little difficulty.

Brompton, with its maker's research and development facility ought to be able to do it at a canter.

I have little sympathy with Brompton over costs.

They've been making a £300 bike and charging a grand for it for years.

Part of the problem is current management seem more interested in special editions based around fad and fashion, and 'trendy' Brompton Junction stores than they are in improving the product.

Remains to be seen if this strategy continues to work, but there is only so much you can do with window dressing.

There are very few products - Dualit toasters is one - whose success is based on them being an ancient design which is never updated.

Brompton might be the same, or it might eventually get overtaken and become an anachronism.

Given their hamfisted attempt at an e-Brompton, perhaps they are better off staying in the 1970s and waiting for the axe to fall.

Even if that happens in the next few years, they could certainly say they'd had a good run.
 

berlinonaut

Veteran
Location
Berlin Germany
The third party makers seem able to make various gear hubs fit with little difficulty.
Brompton, with its maker's research and development facility ought to be able to do it at a canter.
You completely miss the point. Of course Brompton could do that. But it does neither fit what they want to achieve nor the customer demand. Plus you cannot compare the way how small one-man-bands work with big scale production. Brompton produce around 50.000 bikes a year. The multi-hub-gear modifications are mostly done by Juliane Neuss and by Ben Cooper. Steve Parry seems to have lost his prominent spot (and maybe interest as well) in modifying Bromptons, Vostok (who offered a wider rear frame) seem something between very unreliable and out of production, Graham of Tillercycles gave up his business. Other than that there is Brommiplus, who sell S/A 5- and 8-speed kits from Taiwan and Vincend van Eerd, who creates very innovative builds but also not at big scale. So the only ones doing something like a manufacture production seem to be Juliane and Ben. I know Juliane pretty well and thus know about how many conversions she has done over the last ~20 years since she offers it (first Nexus 7, then Nexus 8). Ben seems to post most of his builds on instagram or his website. It is a pretty safe bet to assume that over the last ~20 years not more than maybe ~2500 of those conversions have been made overall, including all offerings (and that is a very optimistic guesstimate). Again: Brompton built 50.000 bikes each year (and have sold more than 600.000 bikes over the last 20 years, the period when those max. 2.500 conversions were made). While this is a nice business for mechanics aftermarket (and good for the customers that it exists) it is simply not a business case for Brompton, even considering that probably many more people would buy a multi-geared hub if it was offered directly from the factory.

I have little sympathy with Brompton over costs.
They've been making a £300 bike and charging a grand for it for years.
This is ridiculous and you know that. If the bike is that bad and overpriced and does not even offer what you want you are simple not their customer or the customer they are targeting. The big question is: Why do you own a Brompton then, if it is so bad? Why don't you have a differnt bike? And if a multi geared hub is so important to you and you still want a Brompton (whyever you want to have this overpriced bit of outdated technological crap :rolleyes:): Why didn't you go for one of the many conversions that are available? Juliane offers her conversions for more than 20 years now, and the same goes for Steve Parry and Ben Cooper. Maybe you are demandeing something that you are not willing to pay for? So possibly it is not so essential to you, despite you are claiming the opposite...
Part of the problem is current management seem more interested in special editions based around fad and fashion, and 'trendy' Brompton Junction stores than they are in improving the product.
Brompton are running a business and the job of the management is make this business survive successfully. They have done exactly that. They are constantly at the limit of their production capacity and have been for years. So obviously they do something right, judging from the market. Just not for you - but how many Bromptons have you bought and how many will you buy over the following years? So how relevant ist you opinion?

Don't get me wrong: I heavily dislike Brompton's current way of becoming a fashion item and leaving the way of being an engineer's product. I hate that they drop their USP of sustainability by no longer offering spare parts for older bikes. I hate that in some aspects the quality of their accessories (like bags) seems to become lower than in the earlier years as they look more for fashion than for functionality while the price is still going up. I hate it that, after 30 years, they cancelled the contract with the German importer and plan to sell directly trough their own distribution to the German dealers (as they have done before in the US and Benelux and elsewhere). This will make many things way worse for German dealers and customers. They are following a growth strategy and that means marketing, centralising and cost reduction and this means (upon other things): less variability (as you can i.e. see on the brakes and the suspension block) and ditching non-lucrative but expensive elements of their business (like spare parts for older models).

Given their hamfisted attempt at an e-Brompton, perhaps they are better off staying in the 1970s and waiting for the axe to fall.
I cannot get the hate that some people, especially in the UK, seem to have against Brompton. The Brompton Electric is, compared to it's competitors, a good bike and not even overpriced. And it is absolutely mandatory to have one for a bike company if they want to survive the next couple of years. It may have it's issues and it is expensive but it gets updated regularly softwarevise and in comparison to other offerings (may it be other electric conversion kits for the Brompton or other pedelecs from major quality brands) it is not overpriced.

Just go and buy a better folding bike. Interested if you are able to find one. If you are not and you are so dead sure that it would be easy to perform better than Brompton does: Go and create your own brand.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The third party makers seem able to make various gear hubs fit with little difficulty.

Brompton, with its maker's research and development facility ought to be able to do it at a canter.

I have little sympathy with Brompton over costs.

They've been making a £300 bike and charging a grand for it for years.

Part of the problem is current management seem more interested in special editions based around fad and fashion, and 'trendy' Brompton Junction stores than they are in improving the product.

Remains to be seen if this strategy continues to work, but there is only so much you can do with window dressing.

There are very few products - Dualit toasters is one - whose success is based on them being an ancient design which is never updated.

Brompton might be the same, or it might eventually get overtaken and become an anachronism.

Given their hamfisted attempt at an e-Brompton, perhaps they are better off staying in the 1970s and waiting for the axe to fall.

Even if that happens in the next few years, they could certainly say they'd had a good run.
Hamfisted ebike ? I thought it was a neat job myself. Expensive but neat.
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
Hamfisted ebike ? I thought it was a neat job myself. Expensive but neat.

It took Brompton something like five or seven years to produce a basic hub drive ebike, which then had many reliability problems.

There's no excuse, the technology has been tried and tested over at least 15 years.

The kit suppliers have been producing the same design - front motor/battery in Brommie bag - for several years.

Their kits are reliable - I had one on my Brompton - cheaper, and you could have them fitted on any model Brompton.

As the manufacturer, Brompton should be able to slaughter the kit companies, particularly given the time they took to 'develop' the design.

Instead, they produced something that was inferior in every way.

'Hamfisted' is being kind.
 

12boy

Guru
Location
Casper WY USA
If I ruled the world I'd suggest the following changes:
Chromo frame and forks, not hi-ten.
V-brakes
3 speeds for chain pusher bikes....My chain pusher works perfectly and was easy to install.
I would like to be able to run bigger tires although the only ones I know of are Greenspeeds.
I would also like a more easily repairable rear triangle hinge.
As far as the price goes I think it's reasonable for a handcrafted bike. I would not spend the money for the boutique versions, though. Carry a heavier load or a big one, the front luggage block is great. The fold has yet to be beaten in the price range.I find it to be as much, if not more, fun to ride than my other bikes. The frame has proven very durable in spite of being treated carelessly by me.
 

Arellcat

Well-Known Member
Location
Edinburgh
I wonder why Brompton doesn't offer a modern multi-speed (more than three) gear hub, rather than pratting around with chain pushers. They obviously accept more than three speeds are required, because they offer six.

I think the better question is to ask why does Brompton think six speeds are sufficient?

I would suggest that the answer is because for very many buyers, six gears are easily achieved, and are actually plenty for what the bike was designed for, which was to be the ultimate portable and reasonably all-purpose bike. Six gears deal with most likely terrain, provide enough overall range, and eliminate the alternative of huge jumps between ratios from just a (BWR) hub. People who want to ride up 25% hills, or power along at 30mph, or who want expedition level equipment and disc brakes can always go bespoke. A 2x3 setup, perhaps with a double up front as well, was the time-honoured way to get more gears, and still stacks up weightwise compared with a bigger hub gear. The rinky-dink chain pusher is clever and light, but it's idiosyncratic. Personally I think the bike is overgeared for a lot of people, even the flatlanders of London. I dropped mine to a 40t on the front which made it far more useable in the hills of Edinburgh (and the 53t on the outer side of the cranks, that seemed like a good idea for descending turned out to be not much more than a jaggy chainguard).

I do share Berlinonaut's views on endless 'badgineering' though, wherein we have exclusive Not Available In Any Shops! colourways, some of which may be very lovely but really are a variation of polishing a (very nice, admittedly) turd. The bike had to be brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century with decent quality controls, but where has the innovation gone after that? I rode the electric Brompton and was a little underwhelmed. I thought it was well made, with good tractability, but it was unpredictable to ride on gritty surfaces and the user interface was awkward. If I needed an electric folding bike and didn't already own a Brompton, I'd buy it. But the Cytronex kit is the one I'd go for.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom