Brompton Question

[TheDoctor]

The question of gearing is an interesting one.
My touring bike, 1x before that was a thing, has a 34T chainring and a 12-32 7 speed cassette.
Gear inches are 28, 35, 44, 50, 56, 64, 75.
My M6R had standard gearing of 32, 40, 50, 64, 79, 97 inches - not all that different, except for the 97" top. Now, I can tour on it - I've done ten days round Provence, amongst other things. I missed having a gear between 50" and 64", but it wasn't a show stopper.
It was a compromise I was prepared to make for the convenience of getting my bike on Eurostar and being able to ride it within a minute of getting off. And Bromptons really are a compromise. If you don't need the fold, you don't really need a Brompton. Equally, I don't need an expensive and heavy gearing option - a lightish one that works is fine.

 

[Pale Rider]

I think the bike is overgeared for a lot of people,

So do I.

Having said that, I tested a new model six speed with the reduced gearing which I thought I could just about get away with.

 

[12boy]

I am so different than you folks. Not better, just different. I like having 94 GI available and use it frequently on level paths. Currently running an S-RF3 S-RF3 SA 3 speed with 58 and 38 tooth chainrings and a 13 tooth sprocket......For mild hills or headwinds it's 72 GI and for more seriousclimbs can drop to 35. Good enough for around here. I am too lazy to have much RPMs.

 

[berlinonaut]

The kit suppliers have been producing the same design - front motor/battery in Brommie bag - for several years.

"The kit suppliers" have been producing every possible design: While today the vast majority of them is using front wheel hub drives there are rear wheel drive kits available (currently based on the Italian Zehus motor), mid drives (from a Chinese company and in a different design from Pendix) and friction drives on the rear wheel (Ben Cooper offered on in early 2000s and the add-e is available today). So whichever solution Brompton went for you could always say "the kit suppliers used the design for serveral years" . The front hub one is the most obvious and possibly the best compromise on the current frame design: Again little space in the rear frame, folding stops the usage of a common mid drive and fancy mid-drive-designs like the Vivax Assist do (apart from their conceptional limitations) also not work due to folding.
The main difference (apart from the fact that the kit providers use standard chinese parts and Brompton build their own motor, battery and controller) is that Brompton are using a torque sensor which barely any of the kit-providers offer. From a few you can get one, but for extra money. Most a using a primitive cadence thingy to check if the pedals are moved and the power of the motor is completely independent from the power a rider puts in. A torque sensor feels much more natural and personally I would always prefer it. Bromton also scores in terms of integration: Apart from them only Nano offer an "autoconnect" feature for the Battery in the bag where you do not have to connect/disconnect cables manually (well, Swytch does as well but at the price of not using the front carrier block for any luggage and having a fat ugly connector) and while the nano solution is clever conceptwise it is a bit "russian" in the way it is built, namely the adaptor for the Bosch tool batteries. Bromton also integrated the controller - with most kits you have it nailed somewhere to the frame - and has a much cleaner wiring. So overall while the concept of front drive is identical the integration is on a totally different level as is the technology. Downside is - as with electric most drive-systems from brands - that the system is closed an you are locked in to their proprietary battery.
Other than that they enforced the frame and especially the fork - you can even see it when comparing a Brompton electric fork with a conventional one. Obviously no need to spread the fork - something that the kit providers only achieved recently by using the latest motor from Aikema - before this was available only the heavy direct drives from ebikes.ca did not need spreading the fork. And so on and so on.

So while Brompton use a front wheel drive and most kit providers to the same it is in my eyes a bit ignorant to state that just because of that it would be the same. Apart from the fact that due to the small wheel size on a Brompton the disadvantages of front wheel drives to not weight as much as in bigger wheeled bikes plus it helps with a better weight distribution on the notoriously rear-weight heavy Brompton. It is currently simply a better solution on the Brompton than the alternatives and critic Brompton for using that seems a bit misleading...

Their kits are reliable - I had one on my Brompton - cheaper, and you could have them fitted on any model Brompton.

Depends on whom you ask. I know a bunch of people who had issues of all kinds over the years with their motor kits on Bromptons from dying motors to insuffient power support to defective controllers. Not too many but the kits do have their weak sides.

Instead, they produced something that was inferior in every way.

I wouldn't say so. Rather the opposite. But mainly it is just different in many ways, mainly below the surface. Which you obviously won't reconize if you only look at the surface. I'd agree that one would have expected something revolutionary after all those years and the end result looked and looks pretty conventional, still it it way more sophisticated than the usual kits. Plus things like the different carrier block on the Electric that is incompatible with "non-electric" bags is a bit of a disappointment.

'Hamfisted' is being kind.

I wouldn't agree. BTW: While it took Brompton ages to hop on the electric train - isn't it strange that they are the only one of the major folding bike brands offering an electric bike apart from Tern (who sell a heavy expensive bike using a standard mid-drive)? Nothing from Dahon, nothing from Riese and Müller (who ditched the Birdy electric ages ago due to problems), nothing from anybody else? Only smaller brands and cheap no names seem currently to be active in that sector.

 

[rogerzilla]

I reduced the gear spread on mine with AM hub internals and made a slight reduction in main drive to 52 x 15. I have to stand up on more hills but I usually have the right gear for headwinds, tailwinds and gentle changes in gradient. With the SRF3, I was never using low gear and rarely using high gear.

 

[Pale Rider]

"The kit suppliers" have been producing every possible design: While today the vast majority of them is using front wheel hub drives there are rear wheel drive kits available (currently based on the Italian Zehus motor), mid drives (from a Chinese company and in a different design from Pendix) and friction drives on the rear wheel (Ben Cooper offered on in early 2000s and the add-e is available today). So whichever solution Brompton went for you could always say "the kit suppliers used the design for serveral years" . The front hub one is the most obvious and possibly the best compromise on the current frame design: Again little space in the rear frame, folding stops the usage of a common mid drive and fancy mid-drive-designs like the Vivax Assist do (apart from their conceptional limitations) also not work due to folding.
The main difference (apart from the fact that the kit providers use standard chinese parts and Brompton build their own motor, battery and controller) is that Brompton are using a torque sensor which barely any of the kit-providers offer. From a few you can get one, but for extra money. Most a using a primitive cadence thingy to check if the pedals are moved and the power of the motor is completely independent from the power a rider puts in. A torque sensor feels much more natural and personally I would always prefer it. Bromton also scores in terms of integration: Apart from them only Nano offer an "autoconnect" feature for the Battery in the bag where you do not have to connect/disconnect cables manually (well, Swytch does as well but at the price of not using the front carrier block for any luggage and having a fat ugly connector) and while the nano solution is clever conceptwise it is a bit "russian" in the way it is built, namely the adaptor for the Bosch tool batteries. Bromton also integrated the controller - with most kits you have it nailed somewhere to the frame - and has a much cleaner wiring. So overall while the concept of front drive is identical the integration is on a totally different level as is the technology. Downside is - as with electric most drive-systems from brands - that the system is closed an you are locked in to their proprietary battery.
Other than that they enforced the frame and especially the fork - you can even see it when comparing a Brompton electric fork with a conventional one. Obviously no need to spread the fork - something that the kit providers only achieved recently by using the latest motor from Aikema - before this was available only the heavy direct drives from ebikes.ca did not need spreading the fork. And so on and so on.

So while Brompton use a front wheel drive and most kit providers to the same it is in my eyes a bit ignorant to state that just because of that it would be the same. Apart from the fact that due to the small wheel size on a Brompton the disadvantages of front wheel drives to not weight as much as in bigger wheeled bikes plus it helps with a better weight distribution on the notoriously rear-weight heavy Brompton. It is currently simply a better solution on the Brompton than the alternatives and critic Brompton for using that seems a bit misleading...


Depends on whom you ask. I know a bunch of people who had issues of all kinds over the years with their motor kits on Bromptons from dying motors to insuffient power support to defective controllers. Not too many but the kits do have their weak sides.


I wouldn't say so. Rather the opposite. But mainly it is just different in many ways, mainly below the surface. Which you obviously won't reconize if you only look at the surface. I'd agree that one would have expected something revolutionary after all those years and the end result looked and looks pretty conventional, still it it way more sophisticated than the usual kits. Plus things like the different carrier block on the Electric that is incompatible with "non-electric" bags is a bit of a disappointment.


I wouldn't agree. BTW: While it took Brompton ages to hop on the electric train - isn't it strange that they are the only one of the major folding bike brands offering an electric bike apart from Tern (who sell a heavy expensive bike using a standard mid-drive)? Nothing from Dahon, nothing from Riese and Müller (who ditched the Birdy electric ages ago due to problems), nothing from anybody else? Only smaller brands and cheap no names seem currently to be active in that sector.

The motor on my 2010 Nano was a Bafang geared hub motor, so I've no idea where you get the notion fitting one to a Brompton is any sort of innovation.

Don't fall for all that marketing bullshine about McLaren developing the Brompton motor - it's a standard part number from a German business to business supplier.

You or I could ring them tomorrow and get 50 or 100 delivered within the week, so why did it take Brompton seven or eight years to do it?

I've no idea where the controller is from, but Brompton, bless them, managed to pick about the only unreliable one out of the dozens available.

The only possible view is their ebike project has been a shambles from start to finish.

Fortunately for Brompton, the public's continuing willingness to pay a premium for their 'emperor's new clothes' products has bailed them out once again.

Despite all that, I'm still tempted to buy another one because it remains one of the better folding bikes.

The eBrompton is the first time the company has been thoroughly out done by the competition.

There's not nearly so much interest in making a push bike folder from the other bike companies - fortunately for Brompton.

 

[berlinonaut]

The motor on my 2010 Nano was a Bafang geared hub motor, so I've no idea where you get the notion fitting one to a Brompton is any sort of innovation.

Where exactly did I say mounting a front motor to a Brompton would be innovation?

Don't fall for all that marketing bullshine about McLaren developing the Brompton motor - it's a standard part number from a German business to business supplier.

You or I could ring them tomorrow and get 50 or 100 delivered within the week, so why did it take Brompton seven or eight years to do it?

I heavily doubt that. Just because something has a part number it does not mean it would be a generic product or publicly available. Could you provide me with a source and a price for the motor please?

I've no idea where the controller is from, but Brompton, bless them, managed to pick about the only unreliable one out of the dozens available.

Oh really? How do you know? And on what basis do you judge? As far as I know Brompton developed their own system in the end, obviously using 3rd party suppliers but designing their own motor and programming their own controller. In opposite to kit manufaturerers where most of them are using generic parts from China.

Fortunately for Brompton, the public's continuing willingness to pay a premium for their 'emperor's new clothes' products has bailed them out once again.

Oh really? Did you ever compare prices?
A Brompton Electric currently costs 2715 GBP, including lightening and the small bag for the Battery (and obviously including the bike) according to the Brompton Website. It is based on a Black Edition model.

If you go to the Nano website and configure a kit you end up with:
£950 - nano kit with 10Ah battery, charger, motor, pedal/brake sensor and throttle or button display
£110 Compact 6 mini Bags - in a variety of colours
£100 - nano powered lighting inc front and rear Brompton LED lights with nano connectors
£100 - Fittings at nano sites in Marlborough, Yeovil or Leamington Spa (3 hours)
£20 - Fitting lighting at one of the nano workshops
Shipping - £20 kit/battery £50 - whole bike and battery
__________________________________________________________

This sums up to 1330 GBP, obviously w/o the Bike.
A M6L Black Edition costs 1200 GBP, again according to the Brompton website.

So side by side The Brompton electric costs 2715 GBP and a comparable Nano costs 2530 GBP. With the Brompton Electric you get a torque sensor (way advanced over the primitive cadence sensor of the Nano, the torque sensor alone costs 110 GBP as a spare part from SJS) and you get a inforced frame and fork - both not available on the Nano. On top you get a way better and cleaner integrated system than the Nano. To me this would be worth the 185 GBP difference, I cannot see a "premium pricetag" here.

With the Nano you get a slightly bigger Battery (10Ah vs. 8,55 Ah) but as the Nano is consuming more power (according to the tests in AtoB), probably mainly due to the lack of a torque sensor, this puts them on par in practice.

Obviously the advantage of the Nano is that you don't NEED to buy a complete bike and you done need to buy a bag if you already have one, you don't need to buy a Black Edition and you can safe money by mounting the kit yourself. But to be fair again: This is a completely different product then as the Brompton electric - Brompton does not offer retrofit kits (as does basically no other bike manufacturer for their bikes). So comparing the price of a kit with the price of a complete bike seems a bit off. If you compair fairly I'd say the Brompton electric is the better deal if you start from scratch and don't have special requirements.

When it comes to kits and you are a greedy person eager for the cheapest price one could ask why the Nano is so expensive. I.e. there's the kit from Wooshbikes for the Brompton, including a 13 Ah (!) battery mounted to the carrier block and it costs 529 GBP. So with the Nano you pay a whopping 800 GBP premium for the same technology and still get a smaller battery... They are btw. not the only ones in that price region and the motor today is the same with most Brompton kits apart from the Brompton electric. Built into a wheel it costs around 150€ plus shipping if you import it as a single purchase as a private person via Alibaba. So maybe you have to rethink your argument and to recalibrate, where the premium charge is (or your criteria for claiming there would be an unjustified premium).

 

[Pale Rider]

Where exactly did I say mounting a front motor to a Brompton would be innovation?



I heavily doubt that. Just because something has a part number it does not mean it would be a generic product or publicly available. Could you provide me with a source and a price for the motor please?



Oh really? How do you know? And on what basis do you judge? As far as I know Brompton developed their own system in the end, obviously using 3rd party suppliers but designing their own motor and programming their own controller. In opposite to kit manufaturerers where most of them are using generic parts from China.

Oh really? Did you ever compare prices?
A Brompton Electric currently costs 2715 GBP, including lightening and the small bag for the Battery (and obviously including the bike) according to the Brompton Website. It is based on a Black Edition model.

If you go to the Nano website and configure a kit you end up with:
£950 - nano kit with 10Ah battery, charger, motor, pedal/brake sensor and throttle or button display
£110 Compact 6 mini Bags - in a variety of colours
£100 - nano powered lighting inc front and rear Brompton LED lights with nano connectors
£100 - Fittings at nano sites in Marlborough, Yeovil or Leamington Spa (3 hours)
£20 - Fitting lighting at one of the nano workshops
Shipping - £20 kit/battery £50 - whole bike and battery
__________________________________________________________

This sums up to 1330 GBP, obviously w/o the Bike.
A M6L Black Edition costs 1200 GBP, again according to the Brompton website.

So side by side The Brompton electric costs 2715 GBP and a comparable Nano costs 2530 GBP. With the Brompton Electric you get a torque sensor (way advanced over the primitive cadence sensor of the Nano, the torque sensor alone costs 110 GBP as a spare part from SJS) and you get a inforced frame and fork - both not available on the Nano. On top you get a way better and cleaner integrated system than the Nano. To me this would be worth the 185 GBP difference, I cannot see a "premium pricetag" here.

With the Nano you get a slightly bigger Battery (10Ah vs. 8,55 Ah) but as the Nano is consuming more power (according to the tests in AtoB), probably mainly due to the lack of a torque sensor, this puts them on par in practice.

Obviously the advantage of the Nano is that you don't NEED to buy a complete bike and you done need to buy a bag if you already have one, you don't need to buy a Black Edition and you can safe money by mounting the kit yourself. But to be fair again: This is a completely different product then as the Brompton electric - Brompton does not offer retrofit kits (as does basically no other bike manufacturer for their bikes). So comparing the price of a kit with the price of a complete bike seems a bit off. If you compair fairly I'd say the Brompton electric is the better deal if you start from scratch and don't have special requirements.

When it comes to kits and you are a greedy person eager for the cheapest price one could ask why the Nano is so expensive. I.e. there's the kit from Wooshbikes for the Brompton, including a 13 Ah (!) battery mounted to the carrier block and it costs 529 GBP. So with the Nano you pay a whopping 800 GBP premium for the same technology and still get a smaller battery... They are btw. not the only ones in that price region and the motor today is the same with most Brompton kits apart from the Brompton electric. Built into a wheel it costs around 150€ plus shipping if you import it as a single purchase as a private person via Alibaba. So maybe you have to rethink your argument and to recalibrate, where the premium charge is (or your criteria for claiming there would be an unjustified premium).

Kit suppliers also make a profit shock.

Brompton, on buying power alone, ought to be able to thrash the kit company.

But oh no, they charge more for what is effectively the same product - with the exception the Brompton one is crappy and unreliable.

If you reckon that's better, fine - there's no accounting for taste.

 

[Kell]

Said some stuff about prices...

I tend to agree here with the pricing argument.

If you were starting from scratch with no Brompton, I don't see a rational argument for going with a third party e-conversion over and above buying a Brompton. There's not a good pricing argument to me. I've not investigated the tech as they don't interest me yet, but I'm sure I will when they do.

 

[berlinonaut]

Given the choice of a single hub gear that offered me the gearing range I wanted and the existing klunky 6 speed design I'd have gone for the single hub in a flash. I'd even have paid a small premium for it. And I'd have accepted a weight penalty. But there's no way I'm going to dive into the complexities of the after market, especially not as I have already paid for my 6 speed. I don't want it that much that I'm prepared to pay twice. I doubt I'm alone there.

That's an interesting one. I wholeheartly agree that - given the choice - probably the majority of buyers would prefer i.e. a Nexus 8 speed over the Brompton 6-speed solution. Nonthelast because the 6-speed is such an uncommon solution and everyone has to get used to it. But on the other hand: I'd assume that most Brompton buyers are not bike enthusiasts, so basically they cannot judge based on the technical data what effects a certain specification will have on them in daily life. Most people still assume: More gears is better because more gears is faster and small wheels is slow as you will have to spin you legs like mad. When standing on the traffic lights on my daily commute and looking at other cyclists the vast majority of them never use their gears - they arrive at the traffic lights in the highest gear and start off in the highest gear, having to smashtheir whole weight on the cranks to come into movement. So even the absolute plain basics of the concept of gears seems to be foreign to a lot of cyclists. On the other hand: The first thing when someone is interested in my Brompton is that he or she lifts it, especially when it's folded. In most cases this is my H2Lx with dynamo, mudguards and telescopic post, so still relatively light. Almost always the reaction is: "Oh, that's heavy!" And that's a titanium 2-speed, weighting around 11kg in my configuration. I had an steel M8RD with telescopic seat post and a Brooks for a while - this ended up at ~14,5kg. This was clearly beyond my sweet spot what I was willing to carry on a daily basis (and about the weight you'd end up with with a 8-speed hub gear Brompton). So - at least in my eyes - the additional weight would really drive away people interested in the bike once they lift it plus it is a bigger downside in daily usage than one would assume beforehand in the shop. My personal limit of comfort is around the 12,5 kilo-mark. So that's the perspective of the user and buyer.

If we look at the perspective of Brompton: It would clearly not make sense to offer both, the existing 6-speed and an 8-speed in parallel as they would canibalize each other. As outlined before the 8-speed would add a lot of additional complexity and variability. To make this worth it for Brompton it would need to offer huge advantages in usage (a question of the viewpoint and perspective) AND it would need to offer a lot of additional sales potential. I would not bet on that plus - given the fact that Brompton is constantly at the limit of their production capacity - they do have absolutely no need to add that additional complexity and variability to their lineup. Especially given the fact that they over the last years desperately try shrink their variability in favor of higher efficiency to be able to scale. Additionally pople - not the last in this very forum - constantly complain that Bromptons would be too expensive/overpriced. An 8-speed hub would make them even more expensive and - at the same time - rise even more critics as probably people would compare what an 8-speed conventional bike costs (which they cannot do with the BWR as there is no comparison on the market). So at least currently not much to win for Brompton but a lot to loose....

That said, I'm perfectly happy with my 6 speed. It's not all that intuitive to use and it's a bit ugly but it gets the job done.

And that's what counts in the end. Possibly the quirkyness of the BWR is even a perfect fit to the quirky image of the Brompton as a bike, so it fits the brand better than a conventional hub gear.

 

[berlinonaut]

Kit suppliers also make a profit shock.

So kit suppliers are greedy bastards as well in your opinion? Is there actually anyone you like?

Brompton, on buying power alone, ought to be able to thrash the kit company.

Why should they? Apart that you want them to do that.

But oh no, they charge more for what is effectively the same product

Well, it is not the same product. It is the same product in the same way that a Dacia is the same product as let's say a Renault.

- with the exception the Brompton one is crappy and unreliable.

You keep claiming that but still lack any evidence. Do you have own experience? Do you have statistical data? Do you have any details other than second and third hand opinion (if at least that)? Is there any actual foundation for your claims? I do not own a Brompton electric but have ridden one and know some people who own one. I've neither experienced issues myself nor heard of any from the owners. There have been forum posts about issues but to a very limited amount and not more (but rather less) than with any given conversion kit. Given my own experience there is room for improvement with the power-levers in my opinion it is nothing dramatic, can be (and is) done via software updates and the whole thing behaves rather unspectacular (which is a good thing for a pedelec).

 

[Pale Rider]

If you were starting from scratch with no Brompton, I don't see a rational argument for going with a third party e-conversion over and above buying a Brompton

The rational argument is you can convert any spec Brompton, and you also have battery and Brommie bag options.

Choice of colour could be enough to swing it for some.

Equally, I'm sure there are factory Brompton ebike buyers who are not interested in all the push bike options, or don't understand them and find them daunting.

A factory e-Brompton is good for them - assuming they take the leap of faith the widespread reliability problems have been sorted.

 

[Kell]

The rational argument is you can convert any spec Brompton, and you also have battery and Brommie bag options.

I get it - it's horses for courses.

But I *think* most people would prefer to buy the whole kit and caboodle from Brompton because they'll get a warranty for the whole bike. Now that an official route is available, I can't see the majority of people buying their chosen Brompton then opting to fit an 'unknown' third party supplier. Especially as the price difference is relatively small. If you could buy a Brompton and convert for under 2k, I can see more people going that route. But for the sake of a couple of hundred pounds, I'm not so sure.

I put unknown in inverted commas as often it's familiarity that encourages trust even if those unknowns may have more experience in doing it...

In the same vein, I'd rather wait until Brompton release their own version of disc brakes to make that switch. Not least because I trust that a company like Brompton will have ensured that their forks can take the additional forces. It might be the case that those smaller companies offering conversions have never had a failure, but that's how I think. (And because I think like that, I assume most other people do ;-))

 

[Pale Rider]

So kit suppliers are greedy bastards as well in your opinion? Is there actually anyone you like?

No, just pointing out the stupidity of your pricing 'argument'.

Another point is Brompton refuse to supply the kit fitters, and will come down hard on any dealer they find doing do.

Thus the kit fitters are forced to buy 'undercover' and pay full retail, so the only profit they can make on a complete bike is on the kit.

As regards my evidence of unreliability, that's largely from my local Brompton dealer.

A trusted source, given he's been a friend for 25 years.

And before you continue your usual snidey personal attacks, he is also mad keen on Bromptons, and has backed them ever since he opened his bike shop in the 1980s.

I get it - it's horses for courses.

But I *think* most people would prefer to buy the whole kit and caboodle from Brompton because they'll get a warranty for the whole bike. Now that an official route is available, I can't see the majority of people buying their chosen Brompton then opting to fit an 'unknown' third party supplier. Especially as the price difference is relatively small. If you could buy a Brompton and convert for under 2k, I can see more people going that route. But for the sake of a couple of hundred pounds, I'm not so sure.

I put unknown in inverted commas as often it's familiarity that encourages trust even if those unknowns may have more experience in doing it...

In the same vein, I'd rather wait until Brompton release their own version of disc brakes to make that switch. Not least because I trust that a company like Brompton will have ensured that their forks can take the additional forces. It might be the case that those smaller companies offering conversions have never had a failure, but that's how I think. (And because I think like that, I assume most other people do ;-))

Initial indications are there's room for both kit and original equipment in what is small a relatively small market.

I spoke to Nano pre-lockdown and their business was doing OK, certainly no indication the introduction of a factory e-Brompton is going to wipe out kits.

If anything, the introduction seems to have sparked general interest in the sector.

People then realised the factory e-Brompton was at best unremarkable and at worst a heap of unreliable junk, well, it would have been rude of Nano not to step in and assist the ebiking public with something that worked.

 

[CaptainWheezy]

There have been forum posts about issues but to a very limited amount and not more (but rather less) than with any given conversion kit.

You should join the Brompton Electric group on Facebook, there have been plenty of people with problems, many requiring replacement motors or controllers. I personally know of one owner who after so many problems, rejected the bike and received a refund. The fact they still haven't got the promised app and Bluetooth connectivity sorted after all this time speaks volumes about their competence.