Building a touring bike - some questions

[rh100]

Thought I'd post this here rather than in know how as it's touring bike specific.

I've got a reynolds 725 touring frame to build up (Panorama).

When looking for parts for tourers, clearly it's not road gear but more mtb parts. are there any pitfalls when choosing what chainset, mechs etc to buy?
For example, I have a mtb triple chainset I can use, which needs a 110mm bb spindle to get the correct chainline, although sheldon quotes that 'oversize' tubes would need an extra couple of mm, does the panorama have oversize tubes?

Before buying mechs though I need to think about what gear changers I'm going to use, sti levers aren't cheap, I may go for bar end shifters instead, but I need to make sure they are compatible with any mechs I buy, I think the rear mech is less of an issue, but from reading on the web it seems the front is more finicky with chainline issues etc, are bar ends available that have friction on the front and index on the back? As indexing on the front seems more of a hassle and doesn't get changed as often anyway. The chainset I'm thinking of using is Deore square taper and is 22,34,44.

 

[aberal]

My tourer came with Ultegra shifters and XTR rear mech, 105 front mech and some kind of Cannondale own brand triple chainrings. Works a treat. Point being...you can mix and match, if you are careful.

 

[andym]

I must admit I thought it was the other way round - with bar end shifters (and IIRC STIs) the front mech is friction, non-indexed and with the rear mech you have the choice. I have now gone over to friction on both and it works fine - but then so did indexed shifting before. If you want to team STIs with MTB mechs then it gets a bit more complicated as the cable pull is slightly different. There are ways round this.

Deore square taper is a pretty good choice. I doubt you'll have any issues with chainline.

 

[andym]

OK, deep breath and start again.

There shouldn't be any compatibility issues with bar end shifters because the front shifter is non-indexed.

Shimano STI shifters are, I think' indexed which is why a common setup is road front mech and MTB mech on the rear. Be aware that the cable pull on some SRAM mechs is different.

Some people go for Campanolo shifters. With these the front shifter is non-indexed (or at least they were), but there are issues (and solutions) for rear mech compatibility.

When it comes to the BB the instuctions with the chainset should cover everything you need to know: the key dimension is the BB. With most bikes this is 68mm but some are 73mm (possibly this is what Sheldon-Brown meant by oversized tubes).

This may be a little out-of-date: these are the sort of things you worry anout when first building a bike and then, once you've found what works, you don't ever think about.

Hope this helps.

 

[vernon]

OK, deep breath and start again.

There shouldn't be any compatibility issues with bar end shifters because the front shifter is non-indexed.

Shimano STI shifters are, I think' indexed which is why a common setup is road front mech and MTB mech on the rear. Be aware that the cable pull on some SRAM mechs is different.

Some people go for Campanolo shifters. With these the front shifter is non-indexed (or at least they were), but there are issues (and solutions) for rear mech compatibility.

When it comes to the BB the instuctions with the chainset should cover everything you need to know: the key dimension is the BB. With most bikes this is 68mm but some are 73mm (possibly this is what Sheldon-Brown meant by oversized tubes).

This may be a little out-of-date: these are the sort of things you worry anout when first building a bike and then, once you've found what works, you don't ever think about.

Hope this helps.

Some down tubes are oversized i.e. larger diameter than the 28/32mm diameter tubing. I think that in these cases a brazed on mount is used.

Bar end shifters will work with any derailleur. Indexing can be disabled.

Triple chain sets and matching derailleurs can be problematic. Not all MTB front mechs will work smoothly with a road chain set and some modern road front mechs are marginal in their clearance with older road chain sets. It is possible to obtain smaller granny rings - I've used 26T rings on 105 and Tiagra chain sets.

At the rear end there are rarely any issues if MTB rear mechs are used. I've found that all Shimano STI shifter used with Shimano road or MTB rear mechs work fine with Shimano and SRAM cassettes.

 

[rh100]

Yes it does help thanks


I've just dragged up an old thread of pp petes in know how re the shimergo stuff which I just started learning about today, should have checked replys to this thread first, oops! Looks like a good possibility as it seems some of the campag shifters are available a bit cheaper, look quite nice too with hidden cabling. There are indeed indexing issues with some of the campag range, the indexed one is the one to avoid.

Think I'll avoid sram stuff for now, might complicate things a bit

I think the oversize tube thing he mentions is the actual width of the seat tube, as a wider tube would move the mech closer to the chain rings, hence extending the bb spindle length to correct it, i think I've got that bit right. Looking at the frame again i think it's just normal size, is roughly 28mm outside diameter. the bb shell is standard size.

Chainset is second hand, so no instructions, when they turn up will search the web but the chart on sheldons page suggests a size, will just have to try it I think.


Aberal, yes if you've got that mix working it proves the point


Thanks both

 

[rh100]

Some down tubes are oversized i.e. larger diameter than the 28/32mm diameter tubing. I think that in these cases a brazed on mount is used.

Bar end shifters will work with any derailleur. Indexing can be disabled.

Triple chain sets and matching derailleurs can be problematic. Not all MTB front mechs will work smoothly with a road chain set and some modern road front mechs are marginal in their clearance with older road chain sets. It is possible to obtain smaller granny rings - I've used 26T rings on 105 and Tiagra chain sets.

At the rear end there are rarely any issues if MTB rear mechs are used. I've found that all Shimano STI shifter used with Shimano road or MTB rear mechs work fine with Shimano and SRAM cassettes.

thanks

saw your reply after i posted.

So my 28mm is normal then so will select the normal bb size.

Looks like bar ends could be as expensive as some campag levers, but worth still thinking of as an option.

 

[mcshroom]

Just for reference, my Vantage came with 2203 shifters (8sp) and a 2200 front mech (road) with an acera (mtb) rear mech. From what I've read the shimano rear mechs are cross campatible (except the new 10sp ones) but the mtb front mechs pull more cable than road mechs. If you are going for friction shifting that may not be a problem.

The road front mech works pretty well with a "touring" 48-38-28 chainset as well.

Another issue I've heard about is with XT M770 hubs. The older (M560) ones were fine but the newer ones are prone to fail. There's a thread about them on YACF here.

 

[vernon]

thanks

saw your reply after i posted.

So my 28mm is normal then so will select the normal bb size.

Looks like bar ends could be as expensive as some campag levers, but worth still thinking of as an option.

Bar ends can be obtained cheaply from Ebay. They are very robust and ar perfect for touring. I had them on a Dawes Galaxy and used to habitully reach down for phantom levers when riding my STI equipped bikes. I think that I'd fit them to any new bike that I might build

The price rises in Shimano stuff was breath taking. I built two bikes about eight months apart. The first used Tiagra, 105 and Deore nione speed components for the drive train and gear changing. The bike built eight months on cost more for the drive train despite using lower spec components i.e. Sora instead of Tiagra, Tiagra instead of 105 and eight speed instead of nine speed.

I think most of the older components have now worked their way out of the supply chain but nevertheless do check that the from derailleur will work with the chain set that you purchase. I am using a nine speed Sora mech with an octalink 105 chain set and it only just clears the middle ring. The old 8 speed mech worked perfectly.

 

[andym]

So my 28mm is normal then so will select the normal bb size.

Seat tubes come in three sizes (SFAIK maybe there are some weird ones) 28.9 mm (or at least 28 point something) 31.8 mm and 34.9mm. You adjust for these differences with the limit screws on the mech. Although some mechs will only fit one size of tube.

(on the subject of mechs be aware that some are 'top-pull' and some are 'bottom-pull' - and some do both. I suspect you need a bottom-pull mech).

The size of the BB you need is determined by the width of the BB shell - if you don't know what it is then measure it (I'll bet its 68mm). You can find and download the instructions on the technical documents section of the shimano website. The instructions for should tell you what BB size you need (remember that the 'OLD' on a road/touring frame is 130mm as opposed to 135mm for an MTB amd some hybrids).

Bar ends can be obtained cheaply from Ebay.

These looked interesting:

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=120741189797&index=0&nav=SEARCH&nid=38921795409

As a general cheat it's worth looking at the specs for pre-built and custom-built touring bikes to give you a general idea of what works with what.

 

[andym]

Oh and my other piece of general advice would be to get your local bike shop to 'face and chase' the BB shell and face and fit the headset. Someone will be along in 5 minutes to say that you can do this yourself - and indeed you can, but given that your LBS has the proper tools and will charge you something like £20 i'm not sure DIY is worth it.

Invest in a decent pair of cable cutters.

I spray my frames with Framesaver. I don't know whether I realy need to but ...

 

[rh100]

Just for reference, my Vantage came with 2203 shifters (8sp) and a 2200 front mech (road) with an acera (mtb) rear mech. From what I've read the shimano rear mechs are cross campatible (except the new 10sp ones) but the mtb front mechs pull more cable than road mechs. If you are going for friction shifting that may not be a problem.

The road front mech works pretty well with a "touring" 48-38-28 chainset as well.

Another issue I've heard about is with XT M770 hubs. The older (M560) ones were fine but the newer ones are prone to fail. There's a thread about them on YACF here.

thanks for the info mcshroom

 

[rh100]

Seat tubes come in three sizes (SFAIK maybe there are some weird ones) 28.9 mm (or at least 28 point something) 31.8 mm and 34.9mm. You adjust for these differences with the limit screws on the mech. Although some mechs will only fit one size of tube.

(on the subject of mechs be aware that some are 'top-pull' and some are 'bottom-pull' - and some do both. I suspect you need a bottom-pull mech).

The size of the BB you need is determined by the width of the BB shell - if you don't know what it is then measure it (I'll bet its 68mm). You can find and download the instructions on the technical documents section of the shimano website. The instructions for should tell you what BB size you need (remember that the 'OLD' on a road/touring frame is 130mm as opposed to 135mm for an MTB amd some hybrids).



These looked interesting:

http://item.mobilewe...nid=38921795409

As a general cheat it's worth looking at the specs for pre-built and custom-built touring bikes to give you a general idea of what works with what.

Its a bottom pull. I've seen today a deore mech that has shims for all frame sizes an is top or bottom pull, 22 tooth capacity, quite cheap aswell so i think that might do the trick. Deore M591.


It's a touring frame, the oln is 135mm. It's a british company so the shell should be 68mm as you say.



Good find on the bar ends, will bookmark it.

 

[rh100]

Oh and my other piece of general advice would be to get your local bike shop to 'face and chase' the BB shell and face and fit the headset. Someone will be along in 5 minutes to say that you can do this yourself - and indeed you can, but given that your LBS has the proper tools and will charge you something like £20 i'm not sure DIY is worth it.

Invest in a decent pair of cable cutters.

I spray my frames with Framesaver. I don't know whether I realy need to but ...

Should this be necessary for a brand new frame? Or is this when it's needed most? I take your point on the cutters, I use a hefty pair of pliers and clean the ends up after cutting, but gear cables canbe a pig to cut neatly.
Will have a think on the framesaver.
Thanks

 

[willem]

Beware. There are two sizes of a square taper BB that matter. One is shell width. 68 mm is common, but 73 mm also exists. The other is axle length, raning from just over 100 mm to about an inch more than that. This depends on crankset design and is model specific. With the right length, you get a correct chainline. If your chainstays fan out a lot, you may have to add a few mm, and accept a less than perfect chainline.
Willem