Building muscle strength?

[Rob3rt]

It may also have been one of the reason they got where they are. They were once mere mortals too! No cyclist has ever been great without hard training.

I am not talking about weight training here btw, I am talking generally. I am also not saying one shouldn't work hard. I am saying you should train in a way that addresses your needs at the current time, not in a way that addresses the needs of someone else (like an elite athlete) at a particular point in their timeline.

I am also not saying we can not learn from them, but you should contextualise and evaluate it in your own predicament. You shouldn't assume, " -insert pros name- is doing this, so it must be good, ill do that too".

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

I am not talking about weight training here btw, I am talking generally. I am also not saying one shouldn't work hard. I am saying you should train in a way that addresses your needs at the current time, not in a way that addresses the needs of someone else (like an elite athlete) at a particular point in their timeline.

Could not agree more. My point was merely to show that weight training may work for some. I used several pro's as reference.
The individual and circumstance are what defines ones requirements.

 

[Creakyknee]

I would suggest you add a sweet spot session and a medium duration tempo session to your current riding.

What is a sweet spot session ?

 

[Rob3rt]

It is essentially the overlap area between tempo and threshold work (high tempo/low threshold). It requires less time than tempo work, but also less recovery than threshold work, thus it can be repeated with increased frequency. It is called the sweet spot, because it is the most time efficient training intensity for raising your FTP.

You can train in the sweet spot in the same format as typical threshold training, i.e. blocks of 20 mins with a rest in between, but I prefer to ride one block of 45-60 minutes.

 

[400bhp]

Good here innit

 

[400bhp]

It's not all about physical too. If doing weights means it makes you feel better and or it means you get motivated to ride more or enjoy it more that do it.

 

[Rob3rt]

Good here innit

It's okay when you have nowhere better to be I suppose

 

[400bhp]

I should be out weight training

 

[T.M.H.N.E.T]

Could not agree more. My point was merely to show that weight training may work for some. I used several pro's as reference.
The individual and circumstance are what defines ones requirements.

Well no.You can't show that it "may work" because nobody can quantify how it "may" do so. No matter how many pro names you throw in, you still won't do it. What you have been able to show is that some pros use the gym, but not to what degree,why or indeed how much on the bike specific training they also do.

You're probably looking past rehab/prevention still. "A pro does it" really doesn't support itself or suggest anything.

 

[Ningishzidda]

I think it was Loughborough University, a place of dubious repute, who conducted a study into this very argument.
A group of students rode bikes and didn’t do weights. A pre-determined road route was devised and they rode it every two days.
A group of students trained with weights and rode a pre-determined session on a gym bike.
A group of students trained with weights and rode the bikes on the road ‘two weeks about’.
Results were based on a cycle ergometer measuring ultimate power and FTP.

The students who rode the bikes improved. The students who did weights improved better and the third group, guess what, improved in steps following the weights fortnight.

I now train with weights in conjunction with road mileage.

I describe Loughborough University as a place of dubious repute because the dept of Automotive Engineering categorically stated a motor car CANNOT accelerate from 0 – 100 mph in less than 1 second. The Dept Professor was invited to Santa Pod Raceway, and subsequently burned his students’ dissertation.

 

[Ningishzidda]

Well no.You can't show that it "may work" because nobody can quantify how it "may" do so. No matter how many pro names you throw in, you still won't do it. What you have been able to show is that some pros use the gym, but not to what degree,why or indeed how much on the bike specific training they also do.

You're probably looking past rehab/prevention still. "A pro does it" really doesn't support itself or suggest anything.

The point here is a point of Human physiology. The cyclist has to ascertain his/her ratio of muscle tissue type. Armed with this information, he/she then specialises in a particular discipline where he/she can excell. ( Its done from DNA analysis and/or intrusive biopsy ).
For the likes of us who can't or won't cough up the several thousand quid for a pukka analysis, its a 'trial or error' situation where one's improvement is measured following a 'do, do-not' training regime. This could take a few years.
It is not healthy for a nine year old to push weights, so the 'do, do-not' regime is started at about age thirteen.

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

Well no.You can't show that it "may work" because nobody can quantify how it "may" do so. No matter how many pro names you throw in, you still won't do it. What you have been able to show is that some pros use the gym, but not to what degree,why or indeed how much on the bike specific training they also do.

You're probably looking past rehab/prevention still. "A pro does it" really doesn't support itself or suggest anything.

I wasn't going into specifics as i had no intention in it becoming a debate. I am not saying because a pro does it then others should. I am saying that some cyclists who are much fitter, stronger and faster than you and i, incorporate weights into their training. This in itself is reason enough to take notice. That's the simplistic version of what i am saying.

Regarding the time they spend, it varies. Ivan Basso uses weights and low cadence sessions (40rpm) to increase climbing power. He says it is about 10% of his training. Dan Martin says about 15% of his training.
Many cycling coaches incorporate weights into their programs. Top level, elite and amateur.

I don't believe we are claiming that all of these people, and there are many experts involved here, are wrong to include weight sessions into a cyclists training??

Just because something can't be quantified, doesn't mean it can't be measured. It is without a doubt part of the cycling scene. I find it hard to believe that you find it's significance immeasurable.

I understand your opinion and as i have said before i don't utilise weights into my training. The reasons are two fold. I personally don't think i recover as quick after weight training and i find it much easier/convenient to jump on my bike rather than travel to, and pay for, the gym.

​

 

[Ningishzidda]

The secret of my success.
Drive to gym, take bike out of car and ride 14 miles to work.
Ride from work to gym and do weights. Drive home and eat meat.

 

[Boyfrom64]

Ningishzidda, I like your simplicity , it makes it all seem so easy, when we all know this is not the case.

 

[T.M.H.N.E.T]

The point here is a point of Human physiology. The cyclist has to ascertain his/her ratio of muscle tissue type. Armed with this information, he/she then specialises in a particular discipline where he/she can excell. ( Its done from DNA analysis and/or intrusive biopsy ).
For the likes of us who can't or won't cough up the several thousand quid for a pukka analysis, its a 'trial or error' situation where one's improvement is measured following a 'do, do-not' training regime. This could take a few years.
It is not healthy for a nine year old to push weights, so the 'do, do-not' regime is started at about age thirteen.

Relevant but slightly different subject.

I wasn't going into specifics as i had no intention in it becoming a debate. I am not saying because a pro does it then others should. I am saying that some cyclists who are much fitter, stronger and faster than you and i, incorporate weights into their training. This in itself is reason enough to take notice. That's the simplistic version of what i am saying.

Debate is good, it drives ideas and thinking.

There are fitter and faster cyclists than us, they may also be stronger(muscular). Yet the odds of their muscular strength being the difference are very slim. As you have said, they are fitter and faster which generally means some adaptation, aerobically. If you want to make gains to equal or best those fitter/faster riders - the gains are ultimately going to be within your heart,lungs and growth/adaptation of type1 fibres.

Regarding the time they spend, it varies. Ivan Basso uses weights and low cadence sessions (40rpm) to increase climbing power. He says it is about 10% of his training. Dan Martin says about 15% of his training.
Many cycling coaches incorporate weights into their programs. Top level, elite and amateur.

That's perfectly fine of course, their use of the gym isn't an issue but the reason why is. They could be there in the off-season - they could be there for rehab - they could be there for preventative measures - they could be there for gain(perhaps placebo) In training, forcing your body to constantly adapt is the key to gain. That could well be increasing your average speed thus a higher demand on your CV system - adding 10kg onto a leg press or Rory McIlroy hitting 1000balls off the tee instead of 500

But without asking Ivan or Dan, we probably won't know which one it is.. I do agree FWIW, whether it is a gain, a placebo or just an old school coach. There is something in it, not quite sure what that is - but I just can't see (looking from how muscle fibre works) that there is anything to gain from anaerobic training - for aerobic sport.

(I'm doing something I hate) Wiggo stated in A year in yellow he went to the gym and everyone jumped on the "wiggo said it, lets get memberships bandwagon" They totally missed his TDF '11 crash where he broke his collarbone. His gym use was largely core and shoulder based as two areas that would suffer greatly during Dr ordered time off, and two areas of importance to an Olympic TT champ.

I don't believe we are claiming that all of these people, and there are many experts involved here, are wrong to include weight sessions into a cyclists training??

There is nothing wrong with weight training. But I do have issue with the "pros do it" anecdote(I am not suggesting you are saying this) that often drives these kind of threads. It can almost always be stated that unless you have a diagnosed imbalance/issue/niggle to work out, training of any sort is best done specifically. Whether that is boules,cycling,tennis,swimming.

Just because something can't be quantified, doesn't mean it can't be measured. It is without a doubt part of the cycling scene. I find it hard to believe that you find it's significance immeasurable.

If it can be measured, the test is probably very expensive.

I understand your opinion and as i have said before i don't utilise weights into my training. The reasons are two fold. I personally don't think i recover as quick after weight training and i find it much easier/convenient to jump on my bike rather than travel to, and pay for, the gym.

​

And I yours. I'm not an advocate of weight training with a view to cycling specific gain. But if looking good in speedos on the beach is your cup of tea, carry on.


ps: off to ride me bike. Specific training you know