Coronavirus outbreak

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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
In the same vein, therefore, "surely" you'd agree that:
if the government has data which suggest that the dangers from the pandemic and, in particular, variant strains of Covid, are outweighed by the benefits of 'opening up further', it is its duty to minimise the restrictive measures and their duration.
Have the government published a quantitative assessment of how it is weighing these two sides up, either in general or for the previous steps? Or is Hancock, Johnson or whoever simply looking at the two and saying "this apple is better than that orange" without much prospect of objective assessment or sensible discussion?
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
Have the government published a quantitative assessment of how it is weighing these two sides up, either in general or for the previous steps? Or is Hancock, Johnson or whoever simply looking at the two and saying "this apple is better than that orange" without much prospect of objective assessment or sensible discussion?
Don't think they have published that. What metrics do you think they might usefully use (I think the 4 tests give a useful framework)? How much weighting should be given to each aspect? A risk assessment approach might be useful, with a broad spectrum of potential hazards, not just COVID-19 health related. I suspect more people are dying, weekly, because of rather than from COVID-19 (cause of death as recorded on death certificate). Should, from 21 Jun, the primary cost (COVID-19 illness and worse) is be allowed to continue to trump secondary and tertiary costs (too many to list including health related)?
'Perhaps' this is a complex assessment which is a bit trickier than 'y' apples versus 'z' oranges: I appreciate you may find it too nuanced to approach decisions in that way.
I'd also observe (and think it likely for both pandemic control and political reasons) that the decision is non-binary. There's a simple spectrum from (eg): set a date 'x' weeks after 21 Jun, relax on 21 Jun but with residual measures (I have suggested a few candidates upthread), relax measures and rely on public restraint and common sense.
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I suggest that the likelihood of there being a lack "of objective assessment or sensible discussion" is remote. This is a very important and very difficult decision. Perhaps you could have a go at defining "sensible" to help us take an objective view of whether your implied critique has merit?
 
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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Perhaps you could have a go at defining "sensible" to help us take an objective view of whether your implied critique has merit?
Not enough time just now to even start. Moreover, I am not the one claiming to have some objective decision-making method for this. I used to teach, which gave me lots of practise at spotting someone trying to bluff their way through questions without showing their working-out, and this looks like one!

What's more, I can say a road is potholed without defining all possible ways of fixing it. Since when must we have all the answers before pointing out that government doesn't?
 

JBGooner

Über Member
So surely, if the government has data which suggest that the dangers from the pandemic and, in particular, variant strains of Covid, outweigh the benefits of a further opening up, it is its duty to prolong the restrictive measures.

Latest data I've seen
"Figures up to 3 June showed that out of 12,383 cases in England of the Delta variant B1617.2, first identified in India, 464 people turned up at A&E and 126 were admitted to hospital. Of these 126 people, just three – or 2 per cent – had received two doses of a vaccine.

Two thirds of those admitted to hospital, 83 people, were unvaccinated, while 28 had received one dose.

Three had had a first dose within the previous 21 days, so were not counted as one dose because there had not yet been enough time for an immune response. A further nine had not had their hospital admission linked to their vaccine status.

During the first and second waves, 3.5 per cent of people infected with coronavirus needed hospitalisation. The latest figures show that rate has now fallen to 1 per cent." https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/me...inated-new-figures-show/ar-AAKNLe9?li=BBoPWjQ

Should be another 4 million people or so fully vaccinated by 21st June.
 

midlife

Guru
After having no COVID patients in our hospitals for a while the latest email today suggests that there are 5. All being treated in their own rooms so the suggestion is that they are not in ITU.

However email goes on about sticking rigidly to infection control, PPE and the like. Local rates like in Eden have jumped a bit too and being a tourist area with a likely influx from all over including the North West we just gave to wait and see....
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
we can now read about Dr Fauci's emails from early 2020.
I'm a bit surprised no-one has brought this up earlier. The e-mails are stirring up the right into thinking at long last they have proof of mendacious Big Government and its corona scam. You enact a policy on the current scientific evidence, more evidence comes in so you change the policy in accordance with the new information (masks are a good example) only to be told that you must have been lying first time round.

Just doing a quick pit stop, I have often wondered what would happen if those who delight in these e-mail revelations were to have all their e-mails released for public scrutiny.
 

SpokeyDokey

67, & my GP says I will officially be old at 70!
Moderator
There perhaps should be some accountability for giving out wrong info that costs lives.

Most, if not all, professional bodies have such mechanics in place.

If we are talking politicians and the various apparatus of State specifically, then we tread a very fine line between necessary and timely actions being taken based on the best information available at that moment, or interpretation thereof, vs freezing the system through fear of the consequences of subsequent reinterpretation of data etc.
 

lane

Veteran
What info are you thinking of?

Should there be a distinction between wrong info in good faith, and wrong info for nefarious reasons?

Well some people from early on have provided good advice which would have saved lives but the people tasked with advising the population in the UK and elsewhere dismissed that advice. Where do you draw the line between good faith and incompetence?
 

lane

Veteran
Most, if not all, professional bodies have such mechanics in place.

If we are talking politicians and the various apparatus of State specifically, then we tread a very fine line between necessary and timely actions being taken based on the best information available at that moment, or interpretation thereof, vs freezing the system through fear of the consequences of subsequent reinterpretation of data etc.

No I am talking about the professionals tasked with advising the population who dismissed advice that was available that would have saved lives.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Well some people from early on have provided good advice which would have saved lives but the people tasked with advising the population in the UK and elsewhere dismissed that advice. Where do you draw the line between good faith and incompetence?
On what, in particular?

If masks, I linked an article in https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/coronavirus-outbreak.256913/post-6431508 about how old mistakes led to incorrect medical "facts" being established and taking quite some effort to overturn. We had quite a lot of antimask posts on here early in the pandemic. I don't hold it against those who sincerely believed the incorrect medical texts.
 

PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
Should there be a distinction between wrong info in good faith, and wrong info for nefarious reasons?


There absolutely should be such a distinction, or decision-making and giving advice becomes impossible.

There should also be a recognition that the quality of a decision is not best measured by its outcome (which can be subject to unknown random factors or other changes post-decision) but by how it was taken in light of the information available at the time.
 
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