Coroner wants cyclists to be educated about danger of HGV's

[Davidc]

Any actual evidence for this? Undertaking by cyclists is not a significant causal factor in RTCs. Usually the cyclist is hit from behind or sideswiped.

Yes. Just have a look at reports on accidents in London in particular.

 

[growingvegetables]

... because most people cycle they remain courteous to cyclists where they do share the road and drive carefully around them.

Kinda think that's the key.
And segregation/not is a diversion? Just a tuppenyworth.

 

[Linford]

That argument doesn't hold water in countries with high quality segregation. Possibly because most people cycle they remain courteous to cyclists where they do share the road and drive carefully around them.
I know the vehicular cyclists are worried about losing their right to the road, but the kind of high quality cycling infrastructure that's in place in Copenhagen for example would have massive benefits for the majority of society, not just the testosterone fueled agressive vehicular cyclists.
At the minute, our children and elderly cant ride safely in this country. A massive seachange needs to happen, and arguing that an elite few wont be able to ride on the road at 45mph anymore is not a good argument against change.

Bicycles are vehicles. Their users have an equal right enshrined in law to use the highways in the same way that other vehicles which are licensed do (in accordance with the highway code)

Bicycles don't belong on the footpaths unless their riders have dismounted and are walking with them...they are called footpaths for a reason. Your reasoning draws the same conclusion as that of drivers who give punishment passes or shout obscenities for slowing them down by 10 seconds..that bicycles have no place on the road with other vehicles.

 

[slowmotion]

I stumbled on an American website recently that shows how classic bike incidents happen. You have to flip all the diagrams mentally because they drive on the right but I thought the whole site was rather good. Here it is...
http://bicyclesafe.com/

 

[glenn forger]

Yes. Just have a look at reports on accidents in London in particular.

Any actual evidence?

 

[slowmotion]

Here's a TRL document on the causes of cycle incidents/accidents or whatever.

http://www.worthingrevolutions.org.uk/sites/worthingrevolutions.org.uk/files/PPR445.pdf

EDIT: That link is a bit wonky. Try the download here...

http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/r...n_britains_roads:_establishing_the_causes.htm

EDIT: The executive summary makes an interesting and rather grim read.

 

[Koga]

Where Mr Dorling died:

Boris and TFL should face corporate manslaughter charges.

Unbelievable what a road layout

 

[Linford]

Unbelievable what a road layout

What's wrong with it ?

 

[Koga]

I'll take a guess that it is the rapid transfer of kinetic energy from an object of great mass made largely of steel to one with much less mass and made of flesh and blood?

But I am not a physicist. One will be along in a minute to advise us all.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Koga]

What's wrong with it ?

Yes, silly me !

 

[Boris Bajic]

The problem is with the use of the word cyclist.

A cyclist is sometimes obvious. He has a shiny helmet, is dressed up like a highlighter pen and has a gobsmackingly expensive bicycle. He rides 20 miles to work and back every day and does a hundred at the weekend on his even more gobsmackingly expensive bike. You would hope this cyclist knows not to go up the inside of an HGV.

Or, it may be a 10 year old lad popping to football practice just down the road. He's just done bikeability so he knows he can't ride on the pavement (it's illegal). Obviously he hasn't passed his driving test yet, so he not an expert road user like an HGV driver is. There's a thin part of road with a bike painted on it next to the kerb, Surely that's where he's meant to ride? The local authority wouldn't paint a bike there if it wasn't safe to ride there would they?

Cyclists can be very experienced or very novice. And they're all legally obliged to use the terrible, life threatening infrastructure. Whats needed is proper, safe segregated cyclist friendly infrastructure that everyone who is physically capable of operating a bicycle from age 5 - 95 can use. Cyclists should not be same roads as HGV's.

Your post gets a 'like' although I disagree with your views on segregation. The point about the 10-year-old is a very good one. There are novices of all ages on all roads and many other road users seem to expect them all to be experts ands to know how to deal with traffic.

Although I'm not too sure how many unaccompanied 10-year-olsds there are... Mine were riding accompanied very young and were out on A-Roads with me at seven or eight. But none of them ventured out alone (even in this tiddly market town) much under eleven. Even among keen cycling families, I know of no 10-year-olds who popped to footie by bike alone at the age of ten.

But that's not the point... Your observation about novices and youngsters is spot on in terms of a driver's need to accept that riders may fall into those categories.

 

[Linford]

Yes, silly me !

Erm, no...it is a serious question. What is wrong with it in your eyes ?

 

[Sara_H]

Your post gets a 'like' although I disagree with your views on segregation. The point about the 10-year-old is a very good one. There are novices of all ages on all roads and many other road users seem to expect them all to be experts ands to know how to deal with traffic.

Although I'm not too sure how many unaccompanied 10-year-olsds there are... Mine were riding accompanied very young and were out on A-Roads with me at seven or eight. But none of them ventured out alone (even in this tiddly market town) much under eleven. Even among keen cycling families, I know of no 10-year-olds who popped to footie by bike alone at the age of ten.

But that's not the point... Your observation about novices and youngsters is spot on in terms of a driver's need to accept that riders may fall into those categories.

There aren't as many as there should be, is my view.

Going back 30 years, my ex-husband tells me that at our sons age (10y) he went everywhere by bike, independantly, his parents were very happy for him to go out on his bike in the morning and return home at teatime. This is as it should be.

This is not a risk I'm prepared to take with my son. He has magnificent bike handling skills, thanks to his cycle speedway training, but I don't consider it safe for him to ride alone on our roads. Whats changed in this time? Traffic. Both the volume and speed. And sadly the attitude that anyone who ventures onto our roads if they're not inside a car can be considered collateral damage.
Sadly, the culture for driving fast, inconsiderately without care for others has gone too far.Planning roads for cars/buses/lorries has gone too far. We're not going to change this overnight.
I'd much prefer to cycle on roads where drivers respect me and my safety , drive courteously around me. But it's not going to happen. I see high quality, segregated infrastructure the only safe option, if we're to get back to a culture where the vast majority can safely hop on to a bike and ride confidently.

We don't expect people to walk in the road with cars, buses, HGV's etc and think it safe.Rightly, segregated infrastructure for pedestrians is provided. Why do we expect people to cycle there? They're equally as vulnerable as if they were on foot.

 

[Boris Bajic]

There aren't as many as there should be, is my view.

Going back 30 years, my ex-husband tells me that at our sons age (10y) he went everywhere by bike, independantly, his parents were very happy for him to go out on his bike in the morning and return home at teatime. This is as it should be.

This is not a risk I'm prepared to take with my son. He has magnificent bike handling skills, thanks to his cycle speedway training, but I don't consider it safe for him to ride alone on our roads. Whats changed in this time? Traffic. Both the volume and speed. And sadly the attitude that anyone who ventures onto our roads if they're not inside a car can be considered collateral damage.
Sadly, the culture for driving fast, inconsiderately without care for others has gone too far.Planning roads for cars/buses/lorries has gone too far. We're not going to change this overnight.
I'd much prefer to cycle on roads where drivers respect me and my safety , drive courteously around me. But it's not going to happen. I see high quality, segregated infrastructure the only safe option, if we're to get back to a culture where the vast majority can safely hop on to a bike and ride confidently.

We don't expect people to walk in the road with cars, buses, HGV's etc and think it safe.Rightly, segregated infrastructure for pedestrians is provided. Why do we expect people to cycle there? They're equally as vulnerable as if they were on foot.

I am 100% with you on the change that's happened. I was like your husband. Initially shepherded on the road by an elder sibling and then (from eight) allowed out but not allowed to turn right - which meant the pool was off limits!

I was cycling to school through SE1 at twelve (possibly eleven, but I may be imagining that). I'd love my kids to have done the same, but I didn't have the courage or the faith in other road users.

However, they did ride and ride quite young and even though my heart spends a while in my mouth when they're out, I am much happier for them to be riding than not. And so are they. Our eldest is now at university and out cycling a lot. Sometimes her emails about rides make me nervous, but that seems to be the lot of a parent.

I disagree with you about segregated infrastructure, but not in a shouty-shouty FFS way. It makes sense to me, but I am slow to accept change. I quite like things as they are - but can I please have a guarantee that none of my offspring will be clobbered by a bus.

 

[Linford]

There aren't as many as there should be, is my view.

Going back 30 years, my ex-husband tells me that at our sons age (10y) he went everywhere by bike, independantly, his parents were very happy for him to go out on his bike in the morning and return home at teatime. This is as it should be.

This is not a risk I'm prepared to take with my son. He has magnificent bike handling skills, thanks to his cycle speedway training, but I don't consider it safe for him to ride alone on our roads. Whats changed in this time? Traffic. Both the volume and speed. And sadly the attitude that anyone who ventures onto our roads if they're not inside a car can be considered collateral damage.
Sadly, the culture for driving fast, inconsiderately without care for others has gone too far.Planning roads for cars/buses/lorries has gone too far. We're not going to change this overnight.
I'd much prefer to cycle on roads where drivers respect me and my safety , drive courteously around me. But it's not going to happen. I see high quality, segregated infrastructure the only safe option, if we're to get back to a culture where the vast majority can safely hop on to a bike and ride confidently.

We don't expect people to walk in the road with cars, buses, HGV's etc and think it safe.Rightly, segregated infrastructure for pedestrians is provided. Why do we expect people to cycle there? They're equally as vulnerable as if they were on foot.

People are not vehicles though, and they/we already have their/our own footpaths for this purpose. Can you give us an indication of where this segregated infrastructure will go as the roads in the UK are already fairly crowded, and there isn't enough space on most paths to share with cyclists?