corporal punishment - never did me any harm

[PBancroft]

The cane was in use at my senior school, although i never got it and didn't really know anybody in my class who did.

I assumed one would have to be 'really bad' for 'Whacker' Wearing to resort to it so it did present a line of sorts one wouldn't want to cross. I guess by the time it was abolished in schools there was only a minority of schools left which still used it... which (if true) says a lot for it's effectiveness.

The ban on corporal punishment was passed by just one vote. That doesn't really vouch for effectiveness, but its worth mentioning.

Personally I don't agree with corporal punishment, and I think it was a horrible part of our very recent history which we need to get past but I do think its gone too far the other way. When I was at school (mid 90s) I remember a teacher getting hung up to dry for jokingly swiping the back of a student's head for misbehaving. Everyone found it funny, even the "victim" - but his parents didn't.

HOWEVER what I think kids don't fear nowadays which perhaps they should is their own future. When I was a kid I believed (as I do now in fact) what I do might affect what I can do in years to come. I was concerned that my record would follow me, so I played by the rules (mostly) and did what I thought was right. I was, and am, often misguided and did and do stupid stupid things but I was never maliciously nasty.

I'm not convinced that kids are always taught about their futures and their responsibilities for it, and its not their fault and they shouldn't be punished for it. Our society is to blame - we value the short term toys, gadgets and thrills over a lifetime of happiness. This, I think, is what needs to change.

 

[vernon]

Still want to claim such events are rare?

Yes.

Headline figures are all to easy to quote to support an argument but the figures don't tell the full story.

Not all abuse or acts of violence towards teachers actually involve physical contact or is initiated by the pupil. Often the 'assault' is a reaction to being restrained. Trivial assaults i.e. pushing past a teacher are still recorded as assaults thus inflating figures. That puts a different complexion on your claims.

We can all resort to anecdotal evidence and throw numbers around to support our arguments. I'm I not denying that violence is absent from schools but in the context of there being over 7.5 million pupils in primary and secondary schools, the number of incidents is very low.

Bandying phrases such as 'record numbers are leaving because of assaults' by the press don't actually give an indication of the scale of the problem as no comparisons are given in terms of raw numbers.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Yes.

Headline figures are all to easy to quote to support an argument but the figures don't tell the full story.

Not all abuse or acts of violence towards teachers actually involve physical contact or is initiated by the pupil. Often the 'assault' is a reaction to being restrained. Trivial assaults i.e. pushing past a teacher are still recorded as assaults thus inflating figures. That puts a different complexion on your claims.

We can all resort to anecdotal evidence and throw numbers around to support our arguments. I'm I not denying that violence is absent from schools but in the context of there being over 7.5 million pupils in primary and secondary schools, the number of incidents is very low.

Bandying phrases such as 'record numbers are leaving because of assaults' by the press don't actually give an indication of the scale of the problem as no comparisons are given in terms of raw numbers.&

The websites I ref'd are not anecdotal evidence.
If you think that the current situation is acceptable then I wonder how much more you will tolerate?

 

[vernon]

How do you justify a person earning >£1000000 a year employing somebody for NMW?

If rational argument does not work then you either punish the child and allow then to return to the classrooms or expel them and let them loose the possibility of an eduction. Which is better in the long run. We say that this does not happen to adults but it does. Cause trouble in the streets, resist arrest and you will get hurt. Maybe not with a punch but with a baton, CS gas or simply shear weight of numbers to subdue you.

As for the 6' 14 year old he would have been a dwarf compared to some of my old teachers I assure you!

With respect, you seem to be ignorant of how schools are run and the consequences for the school and pupils of the actions of violent pupils. Schools are legally bound to provide alternative education for excluded pupils and exclusion is accompanied by horrendous and disproportionate financial penalties if no alternative provision is provided by the schools. Exclusions and suspensions have dropped significantly since financial disincentives were introduced and schools have been forced to re-examine the way that they provide for disruptive and violent pupils.

An extremely small minority of pupils are unteachable in a normal school environment and they are educated in pupil referral units where the aim is to rehabilitate them and phase a return to school. Some degree of success is obtained with some but not all pupils in such units.

It is gratifying to see that the current government has acknowledge that more has to be done to make parents accept more responsibility for their childrens' conduct and performance in school. Changes in the social behaviour of a community is not instant but nevertheless I look forward to seeing some active pursuit of parents by the relevant authorities before I retire in the not too distance future.

 

[brokenflipflop]

Life of a 16 year old:

Just turn up for lessons: Get 10 GCSE passes

Just get pregnant: Get a flat and a regular handout

Get smacked off mum and/or dad: inform social services

I've got a 19 year old nephew who is thick as two short planks. he's never read a book and he never studies. He plays sport half the week and gets pissed half the week.

He's got a bag full of GCSE's, a few A levels and is currently at Uni.

The current education system is a joke

 

[vernon]

The websites I ref'd are not anecdotal evidence.
If you think that the current situation is acceptable then I wonder how much more you will tolerate?

I think you need to work inside a school to appreciate that the picture that you are attempting to paint does not reflect reality for the vast majority of schools and teachers.

The reporting system for violent behaviour records incidents that are very trivial that are often resolved with an apology from the pupils along with incidents that merit a criminal prosecution of the pupils.

I work in a tough inner city school that attracts uneducated comments similar to yours about the degrees of violence and insurrection that are experienced within it. New staff regularly report that they attract sympathy when they reveal the name of the school where they work. The reality is very different.

Schools are not violent environments though they are not violence free and they never will be. It's all to easy to be intolerant by proxy. Come inside it's safer than being out in the streets. Now there is a violent environment.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

With respect, you seem to be ignorant of how schools are run and the consequences for the school and pupils of the actions of violent pupils. Schools are legally bound to provide alternative education for excluded pupils and exclusion is accompanied by horrendous and disproportionate financial penalties if no alternative provision is provided by the schools. Exclusions and suspensions have dropped significantly since financial disincentives were introduced and schools have been forced to re-examine the way that they provide for disruptive and violent pupils.

An extremely small minority of pupils are unteachable in a normal school environment and they are educated in pupil referral units where the aim is to rehabilitate them and phase a return to school. Some degree of success is obtained with some but not all pupils in such units.

It is gratifying to see that the current government has acknowledge that more has to be done to make parents accept more responsibility for their childrens' conduct and performance in school. Changes in the social behaviour of a community is not instant but nevertheless I look forward to seeing some active pursuit of parents by the relevant authorities before I retire in the not too distance future.

900 suspensions a day must say something. I will hazard a guess that there is a causal link between falling school dicipline and a rise in youth crime and lack of respect for society in general.

 

[vernon]

Life of a 16 year old:

Just turn up for lessons: Get 10 GCSE passes

Just get pregnant: Get a flat and a regular handout

Get smacked off mum and/or dad: inform social services

I've got a 19 year old nephew who is thick as two short planks. he's never read a book and he never studies. He plays sport half the week and gets pissed half the week.

He's got a bag full of GCSE's, a few A levels and is currently at Uni.

The current education system is a joke

A bit of a non sequiteur....

 

[vernon]

900 suspensions a day must say something. I will hazard a guess that there is a causal link between falling school dicipline and a rise in youth crime and lack of respect for society in general.

You are pointing at the wrong target.

There's a causal link between falling home discipline and a rise in youth crime and respect for society in general.

Kids spend six hours at school and the remainder at home or in their local community.

Do the sums.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

I think you need to work inside a school to appreciate that the picture that you are attempting to paint does not reflect reality for the vast majority of schools and teachers.

The reporting system for violent behaviour records incidents that are very trivial that are often resolved with an apology from the pupils along with incidents that merit a criminal prosecution of the pupils.

I work in a tough inner city school that attracts uneducated comments similar to yours about the degrees of violence and insurrection that are experienced within it. New staff regularly report that they attract sympathy when they reveal the name of the school where they work. The reality is very different.

Schools are not violent environments though they are not violence free and they never will be. It's all to easy to be intolerant by proxy. Come inside it's safer than being out in the streets. Now there is a violent environment.

The uneducated comments have come from teachers so make of that what you will. Look at suspension / expulsion figures for 2010 and compare with 1960 & 70.

 

[brokenflipflop]

I think you need to work inside a school to appreciate that the picture that you are attempting to paint does not reflect reality for the vast majority of schools and teachers.

The reporting system for violent behaviour records incidents that are very trivial that are often resolved with an apology from the pupils along with incidents that merit a criminal prosecution of the pupils.

I work in a tough inner city school that attracts uneducated comments similar to yours about the degrees of violence and insurrection that are experienced within it. New staff regularly report that they attract sympathy when they reveal the name of the school where they work. The reality is very different.

Schools are not violent environments though they are not violence free and they never will be. It's all to easy to be intolerant by proxy. Come inside it's safer than being out in the streets. Now there is a violent environment.

I worked (telephone engineer) at what is regarded as a good local high school. I was running a cable on the outside wall. The bell for break went. Dozens of kids piled into the yard. Also in the yard was a female teacher, on site school copper

and the caretaker. The kids were effing and jeffing as loud as you like all over the place - they weren't checked once. I couldn't believe it. Then, when the kids went indoors, the caretaker proceeded to pick up all their litter and there was loads of it. When I said to him that they should make the kids pick their own litter up he just shrugged and said that's what the school pays him to do. I counted 9 bins around the yard !

If this is what kids get away with in front of a copper and two school employees in a "controlled" environment, no wonder there are riots and cocky little gets on the outside of school.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

You are pointing at the wrong target.

There's a causal link between falling home discipline and a rise in youth crime and respect for society in general.

Kids spend six hours at school and the remainder at home or in their local community.

Do the sums.

There you do have a point. Parents are also scared to discipline there children for fear of accusations of assault.

This whole world is fugazi.

 

[brokenflipflop]

There you do have a point. Parents are also scared to discipline there children for fear of accusations of assault.

This whole world is fugazi.

Hang on! Fugazi = Marillion = Angelfishsolo = Fish from Marillion ?

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Hang on! Fugazi = Marillion = Angelfishsolo = Fish from Marillion ?

Yep you are right on the money. Through college I was Fish because I was a huge Marillion fan and I drank like one. The Angel Solo takes some explaining

 

[MontyVeda]

The ban on corporal punishment was passed by just one vote. That doesn't really vouch for effectiveness, but its worth mentioning.

...

Fair comment I guess not much has changed if, for the sake of argument, back then 51 votes won over 49... and today 49% think it should come back, and presumably 51% don't (but how the question in the 'survey' was worded i don't know )

I don't agree with it either, but back in my day (early 80's) it was 'the done thing' and I didn't feel it was wrong, and neither did my parents.

do kids still find a bit of chalk flying into the side of their head these days? My physics teacher used to be fantastic shot... temple every time!