Counter steering

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jimboalee said:
The bike moves leftward while the rider continues in a straight line until he hits the tarmac. :rolleyes:

If you push very gently with the right hand, you also have to move your centre of gravity ( tilting of the cranium ) to make the resultant force vector pass through the tyres.

If you intend to exercise 'counter steering', as soon as you feel your body falling to the right, you must steer into the right hand curve.

Sorry, but this comes across as cobblers. When you change the direction of the steering, you force the bike onto the edge of the tyres. This reduces the rolling radius of the wheel and effectively makes a conical shape which just wants to go in a circle. The tighter the cone ( the more acute the steering angle, the tighter the circle you turn.

Those of us who ride both cycle and motorcyle know that they are no different in reality from each other.
 

Norm

Guest
But, to put those last two posts together, the pressure on the inside bar is only required for long enough to drop the bike into the corner. Once there and settled, unless other forces (accelerating, braking, leaning, steering) are applied, the bike will continue to describe a constant radius.
 
I don't know why you're still arguing about it. Read the link to Sheldon's site.

The only reason to steer in the opposite direction is to get the bike to fall into the direction of your turn. If you didn't do this and tried to turn while keeping the bike fully upright, you'd fall off in the other direction.

So then you're leaning into the bend and can steer in the direction you want to go. And it's that slight that you don't even notice it.

Which is pretty much what Norm has just said.

I'm afraid that's all there is to it.

Once you are on the edge of the tyre, which way do you turn the bars if you start to drift wide on a roundabout - do you turn the bars to the right to get the bike to go to the centre of the roundabout or the left to make it drift out further - or is it the other way around :smile: ?
 

Fixedwheelnut

Senior Member
I think to settle this every body needs to book an induction course at Calshott or a similar steep track and ride round it at a reasonable pace.

As I said this is the first time I consciously became aware of it because you need to keep the pressure on counter steering to keep your line on the track any other time it is too minimal to really think about.
 

gaz

Cycle Camera TV
Location
South Croydon
BUT.. due to me weighing nearly 10x the amount of my bike, the need for counter steering is none, due to my weight being easily able to set the bike into a lean and for me to corner left without steering right. Where as this isn't the case with a motorbike, due to the rider not having such a weight influence over the bike.

Clearly though counter steering can work on a bicycle. but is the need as great? not in my mind.
 

weevil

Active Member
Location
Cambridgehsire
There always seems to be an element of mystery about countersteering in discussions between those who use it concsiously and those who don't. I'm confident that I can demystify it, but it's not likely to be a short post. If you have a short attention span, or are tired, you might want to read something else.

Firstly, let's clear up a few misconceptions.

Contrary to popular belief and the information in this link...

NickM said:
Something on this subject appears here.

...countersteering has almost nothing to do with gyroscopic effect. Compared to all the other forces involved, the forces generated by gyroscopic procession are insignificant.

Nor is countersteering what one does to control a rear wheel slide. That's steering into the slide and is known as "opposite lock", as in, "Whoa! Did you see me opposite locking through that greasy patch?"

And countersteering isn't a technique you'll apply during the last-second evasion of a small obstacle such as a pothole. For that, you sort of throw the bike to one side beneath you, whilst you go over the object, then let the bike "catch" you on the other side. Or you bunny-hop.

So, if that's what countersteering isn't, what is it?

Well, Sheldon, as ever, is accurate and succinct...

Fab Foodie said:
Get your explainations here (scroll down)...
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

...but his broomstick anaology doesn't tell the whole story.

Here's my take on it.

All bikes, when upright and in travelling forward, want to travel in a straight line. This is due entirely to the steering geometry. When riding, the handlebars tend to oscillate about the straight-ahead position, because the steering is self-correcting for anything which knocks it off-line. If you doubt this, find a way to lock your handlebars rigidly in the straight-ahead position and try to ride it. Actually, don't. You'll crash.

Now, let's look at steering input. Without considering which way the bike will turn, we'll turn our imaginary bars to the left. Don't imagine a large angular movement of the bars, 'cos that's not how it works. Something less than 10 degrees will suffice. Now, having turned the bars left, the front wheel moves to the left. Sadly for you, both your body and the rest of the bike want to carry on moving in a straight line and, although the rear wheel is still under you, the front isn't. It's somewhere to the left of your centre of mass. This means that you and the bike will now fall to the right. If you keep turning the bars to the left, you and the bike will continue to lean further and further to the right, so you ease up on the bars and let the steering do that self-correcting trick which it's so good at. Left to its own devices, the steering on a neutral-steering bike (one which will hold a line through a bend hands-off) will correct to a point fractionally to the right of straight-ahead and hold that line.

The bike is stable in this state, just as it is in a straight line. If you steer left again, the bike will respond by leaning further to the right. To lift the bike back out of the lean, you steer to the right.

So, countersteering is how you initiate, correct or end a turn. That's all.

Another point worth knowing is that the more forcefully you countersteer, the more quickly the bike will change its lean angle. It's slightly unnerving to think that you don't directly control the lean angle on a bike, but I'm afraid it's the truth. What you have direct control over is the roll rate. That's "roll" as it's commonly understood in an aeronautical sense (roll, pitch and yaw), not the rate at which your wheel rolls along the road.

If, armed with this knowledge, you want to try conscious countersteering on a bycicle, it's best do to it at speed (yes, really: see the next paragraph) and in a wide open space, like an empty car park. Also, go for the heaviest, and heaviest steering, bike you can. Get up to speed in a straight line, then change your grip to hold the ends of the handlebars twixt thumb and forefinger. This will allow you feel whats going on. Then, very gently, apply pressure to turn the bars without leaning. If you turn them leftwards, I guarantee that the bike will steer to the right. Doing it consciously like this will almost certainly feel very odd and the natural reaction is to ease off the pressure and let the bike resume its preferred straight-ahead attitude. Try it a few times to get the feel, then actually try making a turn, holding the bars naturally, but very lightly to imcrease feel.

As several posters on this thread have said (myself included), bicycles and motorbikes steer in exactly the same way. The big differencs between them are, quite obviously, speed and mass. The faster you ride and the heavier your "vehicle" (that's you, the bike and anything you're carrying), the more important countersteering becomes. From personal experience, trying to get 300kg of bike, rider and gear around a bend at 150mph at full lean requires quite aggressive countersteering. Conversely, countersteering the same bike at town speeds requires quite a delicate touch. This is why its easier to practice at speed.

In closing, and having spent a long time typing the foregoing, my personal opinion is that active countersteering on a bicycle is rarely, if ever, necessary. It's nice to understand the mechanics, but anyone who rides a bike around a bend is countersteering subconsciously and that's almost always good enough. I doubt that many cyclists have experienced the "Arrgh! Please, please, PLEASE TURN!" feeling, unless they also ride motorcycles at speed. The reason that this discussion is more common among motorcyclists is that knowing about countersteering and practicing it can really save your skin.

[As I said, not a short post. Sorry.]
 

Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
Location
Kirton, Devon.
Norm said:
Whilst all that is spot-on... I did manage to do it in around 5% of the space! :biggrin:

True, but then we believe weevil... :tongue::biggrin:
 

Proto

Legendary Member
gaz said:
BUT.. due to me weighing nearly 10x the amount of my bike, the need for counter steering is none, due to my weight being easily able to set the bike into a lean and for me to corner left without steering right. Where as this isn't the case with a motorbike, due to the rider not having such a weight influence over the bike.

Clearly though counter steering can work on a bicycle. but is the need as great? not in my mind.


You can easily prove this by riding no handed. I can get round the small roundabout on my way home riding no handed (Why was I doing this? Don't ask!), big roundabouts are a piece of p*ss. No counter steering involved.

All counter steering does is to make the bike fall to one side, just like leaning over no handed, thus initiating the turn.

PS I've just read Weevil's post. I feel humbled.
 

MacB

Lover of things that come in 3's
I think I'm weird, I couldn't give a stuff whether I counter steer or not, though if it's only really at higher speeds then I'm a not.

But I find this thread fascinating, don't care about the OP, or the outcome, I must get out more:biggrin:
 

Norm

Guest
Hmm... I tried following my own advice today. I was on a steep-ish road which was completely free of cars. The tarmac was a bit wet limiting the speed but I was still doing 25-30 around the bends and lifted one hand slightly and, um, well, I was steering in the direction I wanted to turn! :rolleyes: :smile:

I needed to keep pressure on the inside bar in the turn but I was definitely not counter-steering at that speed. :smile:
 

jimboalee

New Member
Location
Solihull
I've given up on this thread because I went out for a ride today, turned every corner the right way and got home without falling off.

I couldn't tell you if I 'countersteered' once ??? but the bike went in the direction I wanted it to go.

I'm happy with that.... ;)
 

Fixedwheelnut

Senior Member
Are people confusing countersteering with actually turning the bars in the wrong direction past the centre straight ahead point?

To me countersteering is when you are in a turn [say left for argument sake] the bars are turning to the left but you apply pressure with the left arm forward to stop the bars turning tighter on themselves, usually this is only required in extreme circumstances or forces hence I have only experienced it on the track and motor bike riders experience it due to the higher speeds and weight that they deal with.

I'm not stirring this up honest :biggrin:
 
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