COVID Vaccine !

lane

Veteran
This thing with the blood clots is bothering me a bit, although I know the risk is small. One thing I wonder is what the risks are like with the other vaccines, in particular Sputnik, which I understand is a similar type of vaccine to the Oxford AstraZenica vaccine. I think European leaders have successfully eroded confidence in the AstraZenica vaccine, probably world wide.
Yes and now the EU are purchasing Sputnik and happy to use that it would seem.
 

PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
Yes and now the EU are purchasing Sputnik and happy to use that it would seem.
Clumps of cases are not evidence of causal link.

"if you flip a coin a million times, 10 consecutive heads will show up several hundred times"

https://www.oreilly.com/radar/the-inherent-clumpiness-of-randomness/

This is a fantastic compilation of spurious correlations:

http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
so, @dodgy the over 55s in Group 8 might hope for mid March onwards.
I'll take March @Ajax Bay :okay:
Had mine (AZ) at 14:00 on Tuesday 16th [March], same as my wife. Absolutely no symptoms whatsoever for both of us, not even sore arms.
My prediction from 21 Jan was pretty good then ;). The programme is winkling out the last over 50s, and spilling over into some under 50s, and ramping up the second jabs (ahead of the 12 week gap template) - over 400k on Thursday.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
This thing with the blood clots is bothering me a bit, although I know the risk is small. One thing I wonder is what the risks are like with the other vaccines, in particular Sputnik, which I understand is a similar type of vaccine to the Oxford AstraZenica vaccine. I think European leaders have successfully eroded confidence in the AstraZenica vaccine, probably world wide.
On the risks, review my post from Wednesday: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/covid-vaccine.267960/page-224#post-6366282
I mused a fortnight ago whether there was similar experience of CVT with the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine (or Moderna). I agree that the damage of reacting with bans on the slightest concern misses the disproportionate impact on vaccine acceptance and therefore will result in thousands of lives lost and a significant delay to the return to social and economic 'life'. This is the sensible balance that the EMA considers in its continuance of temporary approval to use, disregarded by EU members, recognising that the threat to the individual from COVID-19 is an order of magnitude greater than any causality-unproven side effect. It's still possible that there is a causal link.

The vast majority of these adverse CVT experiences, some fatal, are reported in women of child bearing potential, a proportion of whom will be on the pill (non-Catholic countries). This younger female cohort will have mostly been vaccinated with Ox-AZ so you'd expect the miniscule number of CVT occurences after Pfizer to be even lower. In addition they will mostly be health care workers, at greater exposure to catching COVID-19, so it's possible that some were already infected (but asymptomatic) before they received the vaccine, which might have been the trigger for the event, as blood-clotting is a known clinical symptom of COVID-19.

Note that, because of the early uber-precautionary approach (there was insufficient evidence directly from the Phase 2 RCT trial that the vaccine is safe for over 65s) all the Ox-AZ vaccine in some countries (eg Germany) was used for health care workers and CEV under 65s - using Pfizer and a little Moderna for over 65s. In that younger cohort there is a preponderance of females. In Germany and France (say) only a minority in that cohort will have received Pfizer.

Earlier this month the UK reported some post vaccination events like this: they were evenly split between Pfizer and Ox-AZ vaccine recipients (11-13 iirc). The UK had not differentiated in age or cohort terms with the two vaccine makes. The incidence was at the same level that one would expect in normal times aiui.
 
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Eric Olthwaite

Insert witty self-deprecating description here
I agree that the damage of reacting with bans on the slightest concern misses the disproportionate impact on vaccine acceptance and therefore will result in thousands of lives lost and a significant delay to the return to social and economic 'life'. This is the sensible balance that the EMA considers in its continuance of temporary approval to use, disregarded by EU members, recognising that the threat to the individual from COVID-19 is an order of magnitude greater than any causality-unproven side effect.
Refusing the vaccine on the basis of potential side effects is like refusing to let an ambulance take you to the hospital on the basis that it might crash on the way.
 
Refusing the vaccine on the basis of potential side effects is like refusing to let an ambulance take you to the hospital on the basis that it might crash on the way.
Depends on the side effects and how likely they are. I have a colleague I thought was being silly until I found she's had some rather nasty side effects from previous vaccines and amongst other possible issues has a tendency to blood clotting.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I think European leaders have successfully eroded confidence in the AstraZenica vaccine, probably world wide.
AZ have not covered themselves in glory either, letting too many results dribble out of regulators instead of announcing them in full themselves. There were always going to be doubtful eyes watching them due to their relatively limited recent involvement in vaccines. https://www.newyorker.com/news/dail...-much-confusion-about-the-astrazeneca-vaccine
 

classic33

Legendary Member
Refusing the vaccine on the basis of potential side effects is like refusing to let an ambulance take you to the hospital on the basis that it might crash on the way.
I take it you've never suffered strong, adverse side effects to any medication making that comment.
 

Eric Olthwaite

Insert witty self-deprecating description here
I take it you've never suffered strong, adverse side effects to any medication making that comment.
My comment was aimed at the vast majority of the sceptics, who have no such personal experience giving them reason to be wary of the Covid vaccine. Of course, I accept that those who do have such a reason to be wary, are in a very different position.
 

matticus

Veteran
Refusing the vaccine on the basis of potential side effects is like refusing to let an ambulance take you to the hospital on the basis that it might crash on the way.
I take it you've never suffered strong, adverse side effects to any medication making that comment.
I can say that I've been in an almost-fatal RTA*, and I agree with Eric s comment.
During treatment I let the experts make the decisions (despite millions of potential side-effects)

*Due to blood clots, mainly!
 

classic33

Legendary Member
My comment was aimed at the vast majority of the sceptics, who have no such personal experience giving them reason to be wary of the Covid vaccine. Of course, I accept that those who do have such a reason to be wary, are in a very different position.
How do you know who has genuine reason to be bothered and who may just be guided by the latest news.
 

Eric Olthwaite

Insert witty self-deprecating description here
How do you know who has genuine reason to be bothered and who may just be guided by the latest news.
I'm struggling to believe that a significant proportion of the population has a history of strong adverse reaction to previous vaccines.

Because those previous vaccines made it through clinical trials programmes specifically designed to weed out vaccines that trigger strong adverse reactions in a significant proportion of those vaccinated.
 
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Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
Eric
Noone is suggesting that "a significant proportion of the population has a history of strong adverse reaction to vaccines."
But a very few people, like @classic33 , knows they have significant issues and the medical advice he received was equivocal. Nevertheless he bravely went for the first dose, with a strong adverse reaction. Vaccine acceptance is very strong in UK: vaccine hesitancy is not. But more work is still needed to help some communities push through their doubts. Not just in those communities' interest: in the whole population's interest.
 
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