snorri
Legendary Member
- Location
- East coast, up a bit.
You don't agree with me that an infuriated driver is a dangerous driver?
Cyclists - Please stop at red lights
- Thread starter Pauluk
- Start date
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- Location
- Shrewsbury, Shropshire
I never jump red lights....... I can't get the bike that high off the ground.
Nearly there
Veteran
- Location
- Cumbria
I love trying to guess which way a cars turningFTFY
caimg. Don't think people are converted judging by some of the comments here.
We are all capable of having a little joke about such issues but, have people considered what would happen if they were injured or killed carrying out this type of maneuver. What would happen to their next of kin. Do they think for one minute that the understanding car insurance company would pay them any sum of money to make their life more comfortable in their wheel chair, or pay for their children to go on holiday or through college etc etc...
To me, safe driving and cycling is about discipline as well as being thoughtful to other road users. Cycling through red lights is a sign of a lack of discipline, poor road skills and yes rudeness.
We are all capable of having a little joke about such issues but, have people considered what would happen if they were injured or killed carrying out this type of maneuver. What would happen to their next of kin. Do they think for one minute that the understanding car insurance company would pay them any sum of money to make their life more comfortable in their wheel chair, or pay for their children to go on holiday or through college etc etc...
To me, safe driving and cycling is about discipline as well as being thoughtful to other road users. Cycling through red lights is a sign of a lack of discipline, poor road skills and yes rudeness.
subaqua
What’s the point
- Location
- Leytonstone
please think of the children
SquareDaff
Über Member
- Location
- Doncaster, South Yorkshire
I do stop at red lights Paul {seriously} The reason I've been keeping things "light" is that I know from other "red light jumper" threads exactly how heated they can become. You'll never manage to convince the ones that do. Ultimately it's personal choice, whether it be selfish or not!
Boris Bajic
Guest
I think it may be a matter of degree.
As far as I can tell (with no professional training in this area) many road users are mildly infuriated for much of the time they are on the road.
I have the impression that this applies to motorists more than it does cyclists, for reasons many of us will appreciate.
Some road users are really very, very angry for brief periods, but I don't see a direct correlation between infuriation and dangerous behaviour.
Whenever I've been biffed by a motorist, the cause has been their (or my) inattention.
I've seen many, many angry road users whose conduct in traffic has not led me to perceive any threat. They are just cross.
I accept completely that by the time infuriation and a disturbed, undisciplined or loveless childhood have combined to produce road rage, a correlation begins to emerge quite convincingly.
But generally, most road users (cyclist and motorist) seem quite able to get a little bit cross and retain their manners, skill, courtesy and sense of proportion.
Ian Cooper
Expat Yorkshireman
- Location
- Silver Spring, MD, USA
The likelihood of any stop-light-running cyclist attending cycling forums is virtually nil. And the few who will read this just don't care. Cyclists who run stop lights care less about motorists' perception of cyclists than they do about the law, the rules of the road, or even their own safety.
As a cyclist who has never knowingly run a red light, and as a person who has passed cycling instructor exams and who has spent time learning the risks, all I can say is this - if they keep it up, they will meet their destiny (ahead of schedule). It's just a matter of time. Red light jumping is suicidal. Sadly, it's not a very effective way to commit suicide, so some people keep doing it, thinking they can beat the odds. When the odds catch up to them, let's all hope that the cyclists involved are able to learn from their stupidity and aren't consigned to months spent being fed through a tube followed by the inevitable switching off of life support.
Fab Foodie
hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
- Location
- Kirton, Devon.
OK, ok, I don't RLJ any more (I did back in 80s London on a fixed long before they were cool ....) or condone those who do simply because we all get tarred with the same brush etc ...
But on your safety stance (in bold), where's the evidence?
How many bodies are we talking about?
Boris Bajic
Guest
I think the post by Ian Cooper is slightly more dramatic than it needs to be, but I have some evidence to support him.
Everyone born before 1847 has already 'met their destiny'. Many born since then have done so too.
Taking the data for births and deaths since records began, I feel reasonably comfortable stating that all red-light-jumping cyclists will meet their destiny.
Sadly, it appears that the rest of us will too. I've been over the figures several times, looking for a loophole.
I couldn't find one. Ian Cooper is right. It's just a matter of time. Finding this out has suddenly made me terribly sad.
Ian Cooper
Expat Yorkshireman
- Location
- Silver Spring, MD, USA
The League of American Bicyclists (where I was taught the cycling instructor course) bases its safety advice on Jerrold Kaplan's 1974 data and William Moritz's 1996 data. The crash statistics suggest that 8% of bicycle crashes come from red light jumping. Running red lights makes up 17% of crashes where fault was attributable to the cyclist's actions. In my opinion, the road is hazardous enough - I see no need to add 8% to the risk.
Extrapolating, in terms of bodies, we're probably talking in the region of 50 cyclists a year in the US, and about 9 in the UK (2010 figures). Though I have no idea if deaths due to RLJ crashes are more likely or less likely than the average.
Ian Cooper
Expat Yorkshireman
- Location
- Silver Spring, MD, USA
Ian Cooper is right. It's just a matter of time. Finding this out has suddenly made me terribly sad.
There's a big difference between meeting one's destiny in one's own good time and demanding that it come sooner.
Fab Foodie
hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
- Location
- Kirton, Devon.
Ahh, leftpondia data.
Fair enough, but we're not in America and this is not 1974, even 1996 seems a while ago in cycling terms.
Got anything recent and relevent?
Ian Cooper
Expat Yorkshireman
- Location
- Silver Spring, MD, USA
It is relevant. No one has anything more recent that's better. As far as I know, those were the best studies done anywhere on this issue. I keep hoping that Stuart Reid et al will come out with a British study on the issue. No one seems interested, probably because it's such a no-brainer (Newsflash - Running red lights dangerous, claims new study! Also, scientists confirm rain is wet!) that it would be a complete waste of time.
What better, more recent and/or more relevant studies do you base your opinion on? The studies done by 'Gutfeeling et al' weren't exactly peer reviewed, last time I checked.
Really wanting RLJ to be safe doesn't make it so.
