E-MTB - Errosion damage ?

[jowwy]

Is it the fact that the bikes in use were e-assist, not ordinary mountain bikes that got you riled.

I never said you were.

Just because a facility has been put in place, doesn't mean that it's open for abuse by anyone. The limiting factor for a rider assisted only bike will be the amount of power the legs can produce. Reach that limit, going uphill off-road, and you'll be carrying the bike not the other way round. Some of those trails would have been passable only on foot at one stage. But as mentioned by others, off-road motorbikes whose riders felt they could go where they pleased, would have soon opened some of those up. A branch here, a tree there, and from there you're on a slippery slope to losing access entirely.

For a taste of what may happen, read the two reviews on this route.
https://www.sportireland.ie/outdoors/walking/trails/east-clare-way

The off-road sections mentioned, went on-road due to misuse by cyclists. The Lough Derg Cycleway, mentioned on this forum, is no longer publicised. Again due to riders not willing to stick to the trail/way. Which was a pity as they took you to some very scenic places. Places you see from afar and wonder what it might look like/what's up there.
The goodwill of the landowners was lost. A minority ruined it for the majority. You can be in the minority that calls for something to be done, or the minority that ruins it for everyone.

The choice is yours.

Are you saying normal mtb’ers dont remove a branch here, a log there, to open up more trials…..or is it only the Emtb’er that does that…….cause i have seen many trails built by mtb’ers cutting into new undergrowth, adding jumps, cutting down trees etc etc over the many years i have been alive….

 

[jowwy]

Do ebikes come with only the one gear?

I make a distinction between an e-assist bike and an ebike. The latter, in my opinion, relies more on a motor to power it than the rider. Often they are nothing more motorbikes without a petrol engine. With pedals to assist with the look of it being a bicycle. I have neither e-assist or ebike, by choice.

both E assist and Ebike require rider input………if it falls within the UK guidlines of what is an E Bike..

 

[fossyant]

There is an arrogance among many eMTBers that they will damn well go where they want. Jowwy you don't MTB so you haven't a clue what goes on.

Add in idiots on leccy MX bikes too.

The problem with eMTBs is it opens up areas to people that don't normally ride a bike and respect the countryside. As has been said before, more MX riders are using them as you can't ride MX bikes in many places.

The guy charging around in big wellies certainly wasn't a regular cyclist. Most of us abide by sticking to trails that are made for us, not using footpaths etc because we've been cycling years. EMTBs, whilst great for those suffering disability, age etc, its also enabling perfectly able bodied people to charge around these trail centres without any respect for others. Its bloody hard climbing in the forest, but when some tool whizzes past you at 15 mph with no warning, it gets tiresome

 

[KnittyNorah]

Roads and bridleways that were built for bikes long before i was born. I didnt go there and decide to cut the trail myself, in an area were there wasnt one before…….like you have already admitted to doing earlier in thread with your group of volunteers and maintainers.

im pretty sure the gisburn mountain trails didnt just appear out of thin air…….

Bridleways were never built for bicycles - the clue is in the name.

Just like footpaths, and alongside them, for the division is entirely artificial, they developed, some over a few years, some over decades, some over centuries and some over millennia. For more on their history, you might be interested in this website.
The tracks in Gisburn Forest were, in the main, developed from and alongside forestry tracks - again the clue is in the name. There are very few current actual bridleways in the area although many of the small roads used to be packhorse trails, at least in part, and so did many of the tracks across the moorland which were incorrectly recorded - by accident, design or just ignorance - as 'footpaths' in the early years of the official recording of PROWS from 1949 forwards.

 

[jowwy]

Bridleways were never built for bicycles - the clue is in the name.

Just like footpaths, and alongside them, for the division is entirely artificial, they developed, some over a few years, some over decades, some over centuries and some over millennia. For more on their history, you might be interested in this website.
The tracks in Gisburn Forest were, in the main, developed from and alongside forestry tracks - again the clue is in the name. There are very few current actual bridleways in the area although many of the small roads used to be packhorse trails, at least in part, and so did many of the tracks across the moorland which were incorrectly recorded - by accident, design or just ignorance - as 'footpaths' in the early years of the official recording of PROWS from 1949 forwards.

Bridleways here in south wales are now part of the cycle network and have been long before i was born in 76’……

 

[fossyant]

We all are eroders of landscape. Even you on your hybrid (flat bar road bike) erode the landscape, by general use, and done forget fossil fuel burning charging batteries.

As i have said, there is a particular type on emtbs that are causing additional erosion. Thats what I saw in person, along with others.

 

[I like Skol]

Are you saying normal mtb’ers dont remove a branch here, a log there, to open up more trials…..or is it only the Emtb’er that does that…….cause i have seen many trails built by mtb’ers cutting into new undergrowth, adding jumps, cutting down trees etc etc over the many years i have been alice….

but hey, lets blame one group and not the other

Completely different argument and problem. Bootleg trails (usually downhill) are not even remotely what is being discussed here. The forestry commission, volunteer run type trail centre is approved and official routing with layout and maintainance to allow access to all. These trails are being rendered near unusable by irresponsible riding and this is being massively accelerated by the huge growth of casual (and let's face it, for the majority, unnecessary) ebike use. This will endanger the existence of these trails for all, not just the ones that have caused much of the damage.

I was reporting what I saw. Maybe these guys just didn't care but not sticking to the trail and tearing up other areas is not on. Applies to any MTBer, but the powered lot were going where us fairly fit leg only lot couldn't.

But if you fit leg only lot could get there, would you???

3. some one already started the erosion, but ones not happy with another group adding to it, just cause they cant themselves, cause they are fit legged people who cant get there. But if they could get there, im damn sure they would……..

Just to repeat the point, it is people wrecking existing, official trails that we are discussing, not cutting entire new tracks across virgin land.
Back in the day I used to watch a great program called Junior Kickstart. Motorbike riders had to ride a course over obstacles without leaving the course or putting a foot down.
I take part in 4x4 trialling, again the aim is to drive a technical course without stopping, leaving the course or hitting the canes/gates.
Both good training and ethos for riding at MTB trail centres. Use your skill and determination to remain on the defined course, and I think this is the way that responsible riders try to ride at centres and in the countryside.
Just ragging around on your pedal motorbike as fast as you can and to hell with sticking to the trail or the damage you are doing is simply bad form whichever way you look at it!

 

[Hacienda71]

Ffs, this isn't an anti ebike thread. The issue at Gisburn is that the MTB trails have been built specifically for human powered MTB's and approved by the Forestry Commission that own the land and hence their support, not for bikes with an added assistance of an extra 500 watts on top of the riders own strength that are being used to tear up untouched grass and peat areas, which you can't with 200 to 300 watts. When you erode peat which has taken 1000's of years to form with no thought of the consequences we have every right to call it out. I do the same with the trail riders tearing up the countryside in the Peak District.
There are trails specifically designed for EMTB's that don't create the problems we saw, or they could just respect where they are riding as Fossy has already pointed out.

 

[classic33]

I've seen too many footpaths closed due to the actions of a minority, be they on two feet or two wheels. Along with repairing the damage done by both.

 

[dan_bo]

Ffs, this isn't an anti ebike thread. The issue at Gisburn is that the MTB trails have been built specifically for human powered MTB's and approved by the Forestry Commission that own the land and hence their support, not for bikes with an added assistance of an extra 500 watts on top of the riders own strength that are being used to tear up untouched grass and peat areas, which you can't with 200 to 300 watts. When you erode peat which has taken 1000's of years to form with no thought of the consequences we have every right to call it out. I do the same with the trail riders tearing up the countryside in the Peak District.
There are trails specifically designed for EMTB's that don't create the problems we saw, or they could just respect where they are riding as Fossy has already pointed out.

Is that 300 Watts at the crank or the back axle?

 

[Hacienda71]

Is that 300 Watts at the crank or the back axle?

Pedal mate

 

[classic33]

Bridleways here in south wales are now part of the cycle network and have been long before i was born in 76’……

And there's a 40/60 possibility that the bridleways may soon be closed to bicycles. Downgrading of bridleway to footpath.
The actions of the few may well undo the work done.

 

[jowwy]

And there's a 40/60 possibility that the bridleways may soon be closed to bicycles. Downgrading of bridleway to footpath.
The actions of the few may well undo the work done.

As said, its part of the cycle network here……it wont be downgraded to footpath

 

[jowwy]

Ffs, this isn't an anti ebike thread. The issue at Gisburn is that the MTB trails have been built specifically for human powered MTB's and approved by the Forestry Commission that own the land and hence their support, not for bikes with an added assistance of an extra 500 watts on top of the riders own strength that are being used to tear up untouched grass and peat areas, which you can't with 200 to 300 watts. When you erode peat which has taken 1000's of years to form with no thought of the consequences we have every right to call it out. I do the same with the trail riders tearing up the countryside in the Peak District.
There are trails specifically designed for EMTB's that don't create the problems we saw, or they could just respect where they are riding as Fossy has already pointed out.

500watts????

 

[classic33]

As said, its part of the cycle network here……it wont be downgraded to footpath

Currently going through the Welsh Parliament.