E10 petrol

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sittingbull

Veteran
Location
South Liverpool
As I understand it the Premium Unleaded fuel will remain E5 (up to 5%) and Esso's Synergy Supreme + will remain ethanol free (dependant on geographical location). Not sue for how long though.

I've a Honda CBR600 running on carbs and 2 stroke garden machinery which will also be affected. If I can't source ethanol free I've fuel stabiliser ready, particularly for the winter lay-off.
 

Lozz360

Veteran
Location
Oxfordshire
If you use the non-premium petrol, ie. the cheaper of the two petrol types at the pump, then you are already using E10 fuel. I think that’s correct. Happy to be contradicted.
 

sittingbull

Veteran
Location
South Liverpool
What winter lay off? It's a Honda! It won't turn into a pile of rust flakes if a few raindrops fall on it!
No but I might, metaphorically speaking ;)

Ethanol has been with us for a while, from what I've read E5 was thought to be the safest they could introduce without a significant impact on the longevity of (older) vehicles. Now they're going to E10 anyway :wacko:

I think the pump nozzles have been transitioning for a while. Esso's Synergy Supreme + will be labelled E5 (up to 5%) although it will be 0% in much of the country.

Even plastic fuel tanks can be affected, I've read of cases (in the states where they've had higher % ethanol for longer) where dealers are refusing to service certain motorbikes if removal of the tank is required as it cannot be refitted if the ethanol has warped it.

My car is "unaffected" but my mileage is so low that fuel will be going off in the tank. Hence one option is to "fill up" more frequently with smaller amounts, making extra trips to the forecourt :wacko:
 
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a.twiddler

Veteran
I had read that ethanol in fuel was more likely to affect fuel system parts particularly carburetted ones more if laid up for a period. I imagine most floats are plastic nowadays but it can attack solder, brass, fuel pipes and presumably fuel pump parts and susceptible engine seals. Also the water absorbing nature of ethanol can allow internal rusting in steel tanks as well as, as you've mentioned, affecting plastic tanks. It's not an ideal situation where such a well finished bike as a Honda is weatherproof but could now be eaten from the inside by its fuel.
 

sittingbull

Veteran
Location
South Liverpool
It's not a good situation. A friend of mine works for one of the major breakdown organisations. I asked him what I should do with the Honda through the winter. He said to drain the carbs (which I usually do) AND the tank. I presume an empty tank will rust so presumably that needs oiling. Maybe the ethanol debacle will turn out to be nothing more than a damp squib, time will tell.

Aspen 2 and Aspen 4 is alkylate petrol which is free of ethanol. Sold typically in 1 or 5 litre containers it would be prohibitively expensive (IMHO) for regular use in vehicles, although some vintage motorcycle enthusiasts are apparently using it. Apparently it has a shelf life of 5 years. I think it's marketed more for the small engines of garden machinery, petrol hedge trimmers etc.
 
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a.twiddler

Veteran
It used to be that if you weren't going to use your bike for a while it was always best to leave the tank full even if you had to drain it and put fresh fuel in when you came to use it. Now -who knows? Maybe the ethanol thing will turn out to be a damp squib. I hope so. It's only 10% after all.
But the thing with having to keep specialised cans of fuel reminds me of when diesel cars started to become popular. I always used to keep a 2 gallon can in the boot because not all filling stations had diesel. Of course there were many more filling stations then.

It may come to a stage if the percentage of ethanol in fuel increases that you will need different grades of fuel depending on the age of your car or bike, and newer ones might cope with it but older ones will not. Once the majority of cars are electric the momentum will be towards making keeping a petrol car more and more difficult, with grades of fuel that you need not always available, especially if there are many different ones.

It's not a new phenomenon though. There was a time when you could get ready mixed petroil which came out of the pump for petroil 2 strokes.
In the 70s there were many 2 stroke bikes and some cars like Wartburgs about but even they went over to pump oiling for the sake of convenience and emissions. I had quite a few such bikes myself. Then in the nineties EU emissions tightened and new 2 strokes were restricted in size so you tended to get small scooters allowed with 2 stroke engines but no more MZs etc up to 300cc for example. MZ sold manufacturing rights to Kanuni in Turkey and they sold their version in countries outside the EU. So It went on, engine size limited to 125 then 50cc. Easier to use someone else's 4 stroke engine than redesign your own 2 stroke engine with fuel injection to improve emissions.

Next may be a reduction in the size of petrol engines in cars, or maybe reduced power and better emissions to accommodate more ethanol or other additives in petrol. Maybe people in the new electric age will remember petrol engines as unreliable, low powered machines with expensive and hard-to-find fuel? I think people like myself have lived through the best (and maybe the worst) of the age of oil.
 
If you use the non-premium petrol, ie. the cheaper of the two petrol types at the pump, then you are already using E10 fuel. I think that’s correct. Happy to be contradicted.
It could be why I've heard my car pinking !
 
Guy Martin's programme was very interesting. He drove Hyundai electric vehicle from Grimsby to Scotland and back , covering 550 miles. The car's makers claim a range of 298 miles per charge, he achieved 155 miles. He found that not all charging points worked and was astonished at the price of the fast charging machines 70p per KWH. The cost of his journey was £204 compared with £140 for diesel . At the end of the programme he said that electric vehicles are the future but they are not there yet and still a few years away .
At some point as more electric vehicles become more common the government is going to have to start taxing them as they won't be getting any revenue .
 

oldwheels

Legendary Member
Location
Isle of Mull
Guy Martin's programme was very interesting. He drove Hyundai electric vehicle from Grimsby to Scotland and back , covering 550 miles. The car's makers claim a range of 298 miles per charge, he achieved 155 miles. He found that not all charging points worked and was astonished at the price of the fast charging machines 70p per KWH. The cost of his journey was £204 compared with £140 for diesel . At the end of the programme he said that electric vehicles are the future but they are not there yet and still a few years away .
At some point as more electric vehicles become more common the government is going to have to start taxing them as they won't be getting any revenue .
What does driving to Scotland mean? Scotland is several hundred miles from end to end and not a fixed point like Grimsby.
In the days of the Billy Butlin end to end walk some English people travelling by train started getting their bags down from the rack when the passed the border thinking they would be at John o' Groats in about 10 minutes.
 

Bobby Mhor

Wasn't born to follow
Location
Behind You
Gov.uk says
'Using E10 petrol can slightly reduce fuel economy (the number of miles you are able to drive on a gallon of fuel). You may see a reduction of around 1%, but it is unlikely to be noticeable in everyday driving.'

The Energy Information Association (USA USA)says
'The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than pure unleaded... economy varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol. In general, vehicle fuel economy may decrease by about 3% when using E10”.

Just random figures from the interwebs..
 
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