E10 petrol

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yello

Guest
If I can't source ethanol free I've fuel stabiliser ready, particularly for the winter lay-off.

A very good precaution. Better still, find ethanol free somewhere! Keep a can of it just in case or something.

Seriously, ethanol is really bad stuff for older engines if left in the tank. Not just perishing rubber seals and pipes etc, but rust too. There's something about ethanol (the specifics are only a web search away) that causes it to absorb water and this in turn leads to condensation, rusts stuff and generally plays havoc. Look on any classic car site and you'll see the tales of woe.

I had to have the carbs cleaned on my 98 Honda motorcycle because I wasn't aware of the damage ethanol causes if left for a couple of months. I avoid the stuff like the plague (some garages don't have SP98 though) and only use IF I know I'm going to use the full tank and can refill with SP98 or, at a push, 95.
 

figbat

Slippery scientist
It could be why I've heard my car pinking !
The RON is the same so this shouldn’t cause pinking.
 

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
All Nissans post 2000 are OK. Phew, mine is a 2002 ! ;)

Stuck 97 in for a treat last week, and saw a 10% fuel improvement on the way to Wales. Best I've done before is about 40 mpg, got just shy of 44 with Super ! Drove like a grandad though.

My car does sit unused, so might just stick with Super.
 

rogerzilla

Legendary Member
The value of Mk1 and Mk2 MX-5s has plummeted this year, probably because they are (mostly) incompatible with E10. Of course, you can run them on super unleaded, which is staying as E5.
 

rogerzilla

Legendary Member
It's not a good situation. A friend of mine works for one of the major breakdown organisations. I asked him what I should do with the Honda through the winter. He said to drain the carbs (which I usually do) AND the tank. I presume an empty tank will rust so presumably that needs oiling. Maybe the ethanol debacle will turn out to be nothing more than a damp squib, time will tell.

Aspen 2 and Aspen 4 is alkylate petrol which is free of ethanol. Sold typically in 1 or 5 litre containers it would be prohibitively expensive (IMHO) for regular use in vehicles, although some vintage motorcycle enthusiasts are apparently using it. Apparently it has a shelf life of 5 years. I think it's marketed more for the small engines of garden machinery, petrol hedge trimmers etc.
Aspen 4 has a pretty low octane rating. It's not for road vehicles. They have other fuels for that (which will bankrupt you!).
 

sittingbull

Veteran
Location
South Liverpool
Yes, but virtually no UK cars are set up for anything less than 95.
All BMWs will run on 91+ RON with engine management compensating accordingly. That was the first manufacturer I checked as I have an old E46. That said I still wouldn't be happy using anything less than 95.

My initial comment regarding Aspen 4 was primarily aimed at it's current use in vintage motorcycles (as claimed by some sellers of the product). A quick search says the average octane rating was around 90 in the late 60s/early 70s. I take your point about it not being intended for road vehicles but was attempting to make the case for the extremes some people will go to in order to avoid ethanol.
 
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Peugeotrider

Well-Known Member
Location
Northern Ireland
Well, we went through this with the introduction of unleaded petrol. Its impact on older cars and motorcycles resulted in the gradual disappearance of older run of the mill vehicles as their value fell below the economic costs of modifying cylinder heads to suit, and if the percentage of ethanol is going to be gradually increased to reduce emissions then more and more modern vehicles will be affected.

As I understand it petrol vehicles built from 1993-on should mostly be able to use E10 though they might not run as well as with 100% petrol but the ethanol could still affect seals in the injection systems and engines. I can foresee E15, maybe E20 (if that is feasible) leading to a further decline in petrol engine usability. That, and increasing taxes on internal combustion engine vehicles and their fuel and at least initially subsidising new electric vehicles will eventually reduce petrol and diesel vehicles to the level of specialist enthusiasts' vehicles.

There could be a compelling case for a scrappage scheme too. Perhaps the late 2020s and 2030s will be remembered for a great cull of obsolete technology as there was on the UK railway system with the end of steam. There are millions of them about, but how long before the cut off date in January 2030 for petrol and diesel production would their running costs be artificially increased enough to encourage the change to electric? There would be masses of them about after 2030 but would the high VED and cost of fuel make them too expensive to run? It would take a government with big balls and excellent organisation to do this, not been much evidence of these commodities to date. If they don't get it right, it could cause hardship for thousands, maybe millions. PLUS the biggie, the reduction of emissions which even the most reclusive troglodite petrolhead must by now realise is a priority.

And as for motorcycles, and as a lifelong motorcyclist it saddens me to say this, bikes nowadays have largely been relegated to the status of fine weather toys, with the resultant lack of investment in affordable daily transport either with petrol engines or electric. Electric scooters as town transport are a start, and building upwards from that base to produce usable affordable bikes with decent performance and range should follow, compared with the high performance short range offerings we are seeing at unaffordable limited production prices at present.

My interest in this is that I have a 1995 Honda NTV650P (model year 93-94 or 5 model) which I suppose just scrapes through the '93 barrier. It's in daily use. A proper old school Honda. It's my second one. I wondered what I was going to replace that one with, and the answer was, this one!
As for a replacement, petrol or otherwise, between whenever this needs replacing and 2030, I will be 78 by then so if I'm still functioning then, marvellous, otherwise it's all academic. At present there are no electric candidates.

Back to cars. Meh. Just a device to cart my bicycles about. I've got no emotional attachment to what might power it. My worry is that with the disappearance of cheap petrol and diesel cars the replacements are going to be out of my reach, and that of many others too.. Either because they are going to be too new to be affordable by myself and others, as a secondhand market needs time to build up and stabilise, or just too relatively less available than their predecessors.

There are going to be interesting times ahead.
I'm with you on cars.
I'm driving a 22 year old Volvo estate.
If it gets hit...I don't care,if it gets scratched,I don't care.
It's cheap, reliable transport.
300 quid 4 years ago is what it cost and when it's uneconomical to MOT, I just go out and buy a old car with a years test and dispose of the Volvo.
I also have a motorcycle 04 varadero and it is more up my street in the aspect that I do look after it and enjoy it.
Thankfully....it's E10 compatible
 
I assume that E10 petrol will of course be cheaper to buy, because of it's lower oil content?
And then I woke up..... :rolleyes:

E10 can be made from biofuel made from grain of corn, wheat or barley. It will allow the UK manufacturers to sell within the UK. Hopefully Cropenergies Ensus will no longer need to export to Europe and Vivergo in Hull can come back to its full potential. E10 is seen more in Europe than the UK, arguably the introduction is a catch up!

Bioethanol is made by essentially brewing beer and then distilling it to very strong vodka, creating animal food and fizzy pop CO2 as by products. If more farmers grow the crops needed for biofuel then it will create a more equal market in the UK with fewer farmers growing rapeseed which damages the land more plus there will be more fizzy pop and more cattle food from sustainable sources going around the UK. The other long term benefit from E10 is there should be lower reliance on imports which will be good for the environment in emissions terms.

To summarise, it is a very complicated thesis related to the introduction of E10 in the UK.

If car manufacturers can work out a way to recycle the emissions from car engines then we could hit utopia if E10 could change to E100 as a renewalable energy source provided that emissions from manufacturing are neutralised!
 
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HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
The switch to e10 is supposed to be equivalent to the removal of 350000 cars off the road in the UK, in terms of Co2. Hmm, interesting.

The gov.uk website saying which cars will be OK and not is a bit of a false comfort, as the pipes, fuel tank and fuelling components are much older than when they left the factory all those years ago, which is presumably what the car manufacturers are using to provide the information to the gov website... E10 will add just that bit more stress to the components and time will tell how these affect the cars. Personally, it would be better for the environment if people kept cars on the road as long as possible, with a view to reducing or phasing out car use altogether, where possible, rather than buying a brand spanking new car, which adds to the environmental costs overall... This is not in the best interest of the treasury, however.
 

Drago

Legendary Member
Volvos going back to 1976 are compatible - thats Volvo themselves claiming that, not some department that works for Boris . Feeling smug. Not that mine uses petrol anyway.
 

rogerzilla

Legendary Member
The prices of Mk1 and Mk2 MX-5s are very low this summer, probably because you now need to run them on E5 super unleaded.

Most cars that couldn't use E10 have been scrapped by now, as the average life of a UK car is 14 years, but there are outliers that people like to keep hold of (to a large extent, a car will last as long as someone still cares about it). Hence some Golfs and MX-5s, which are old, have fuel injection, and retain enough cool that owners have been paying to get them through an MoT, are the worst affected in terms of numbers.

Ancient cars with carburettors were designed before any of this was thought of but are somewhat easier to deal with - you can rebuild the carb with new gaskets if necessary, and the rest of the fuel system is simple too. It's the FI cars that are difficult.
 

figbat

Slippery scientist
One difference from the 4-star removal days is that if you did have a car that needed leaded fuel you could use a fuel additive to replace the lead and keep the car running. You could also have the valve seats updated to use the new fuel. I’m not aware of any additive to negate the E10 effects nor a mechanical intervention. Super unleaded is not available at all petrol stations.
 

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
My car does not like E10. Running rough at low engine load and juddering. OK when 3k revs but gentle acceleration or cruising nope. Suddenly started soon after filling up today. Fine on motorway, but rough again on roads, so shoved half a bottle of fuel system cleaner/fuel improver in. Ran fine after a couple of miles.
 
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