Etape Caledonia Sabotaged

[gadgetmind]

No, I reckon he thinks that if he keeps talking at us will give in!

Please don't tell me what I think. And let's not make this personal, please.

And for the record, I don't want/expect anyone to "give in" because I don't see this as a discussion with two sides, one of whom will win and one of whom will lose.

Ian

 

[yello]

Then what are you hoping to achieve?

 

[dodgy]

1) The large number of substantially similar events that run around the country on open roads very strongly suggest that closed roads are not an absolute requirement.
Ian

So these substantially similar events run around the country, how many riders do they attract? And what conclusions do you draw once you've compared the numbers?

 

[gadgetmind]

People will travel to take part in the Etape Caledonia because of the closed roads.

And people travel to other similar events even though the roads aren't closed.

all you will be left with is a much smaller event with mostly local people taking part.

I'm really not sure that the attendance impact would be that bad, but even if it was, is size really that critical? Why not cap the attendance based on what the roads can comfortably cope with while remaining open?

I guess it comes down (yet again) to people stating the goals. If your goals/parameters are -

1) The roads MUST be closed.
2) The event MUST be huge, far larger than any other in the country.
3) It MUST draw people from far and wide.
4) Resistance is futile (OK, this one isn't too serious. :-)

then you end up with the event as currently staged. (Yes, I wrote that list in a <cough> slightly biased way, feel free to tear it up and write your own)

Personally, I'd have a list like -
1) Do no harm. Enrich the local environment, financially and socially.
2) Raise money for charity, which includes donating excess entry fee money to charity.
3) Be as inclusive as possible regards the age, ethnicity, gender, financial status, fitness and ability level of those taking part.
4) Minimise the carbon footprint. Draw entrants as much as possible from local communities, arrange transport to increase the "catchment" area, arrange over-night camping for those cycling to the event.
5) Listen to feedback, accept criticism, be prepared to make changes, and avoid polarising opinion.

Ian

 

[gadgetmind]

So these substantially similar events run around the country, how many riders do they attract? And what conclusions do you draw once you've compared the numbers?

The conclusion I draw is that some people perhaps think that the success of an event can be measured on a linear scale with the number of participants as the only input parameter.

If you do everything you can to maximise numbers then there are going to be powerful negatives elsewhere in the system, as we've seen.

Ian

 

[dodgy]

The conclusion I draw is that some people perhaps think that the success of an event can be measured on a linear scale with the number of participants as the only input parameter.

If you do everything you can to maximise numbers then there are going to be powerful negatives elsewhere in the system, as we've seen.

Ian

The participants care little of the success, they enter because they think "wow, I can take part on closed roads - that's unique and will be a great experience". They're not thinking, we need it to be successful so I'd better attend.

Where is the banging head against brick wall smiley?

 

[gadgetmind]

Then what are you hoping to achieve?

Dunno. The discussion seemed to be lacking balance and there seemed to be a lot of negativity towards "the locals".

I guess I just wanted people to reflect that if a keen cyclist such as myself can see the "other side" of the argument then perhaps they also ought to give it some thought.

I think it's fair to say that I get the feeling that, for those left in this thread, it hasn't exactly worked. But maybe, given the strong feelings (sometimes powerfully worded and sometimes downright unpleasantly worded) there are a fair few people around who dare not express their views?

One wonders that the general population think on this issue? After all, this forum is a self-selecting audience of keen cyclists, which will introduce some bias.

Ian

 

[gadgetmind]

The participants care little of the successi

No, but the organisers do. And some people here quote attendance numbers like it's a game of top trumps.

they enter because they think "wow, I can take part on closed roads - that's unique and will be a great experience"

And thousands of people take part in open road cycling events and find them a great experience.

Ian

 

[Will1962]

The reason that we are mentioning numbers is that people like yourself claim that the event could be run on open roads - It clearly couldn't. It is very dishonest of ACRE to point to other sportives that are run on open roads, when they are clearly not comparing like with like.

The major benefit to the area is the number of people who participate, and the number of people who come along with them to lend support. Most people seem to be able to understand that - If you cannot, then there is no reasoning with you.

Will

 

[gavintc]

The numbers bring money. The other Scottish events have a pretty small impact to a town and are probably not contributing much to the economy. You would typically turn up on the morning, register, cycle and then drive home. Contribution to the local population - an ice cream and a can of coke (if you are lucky). Etape, forces us to stay overnight. I made a weekend of it and stayed 2 nights as we had such an excellent time last year. I have said it before, if this event was on the same route and open - it would dangerous, very dangerous. I do not think the organisers would even consider this route, it is just too narrow.

Perhaps a different area would work and the event returns to Pitlochry every (say) 3-5 yrs having attempted other closed road routes. This would be a nightmare to organise, but arguably would keep some of the nimbys happier.

 

[gadgetmind]

people like yourself

Err, sorry? People like myself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I'm sure that a *wide* variety of people can sympathise with the locals as much as (or more so) than those behind the closed road nature of the event.

Ian

 

[gadgetmind]

Etape, forces us to stay overnight.

That part of it does bother me. I'm sure many people are in the position to scrape up the entry fee but perhaps can't afford an over-night stay.

Similarly the raised minimum speed that the closed road nature seems to have made necessary. It's excluding those who aren't confident they can't manage this speed, which may well exclude people more local to the event who might be interested to take part but aren't (yet?) strong cyclists.

would keep some of the nimbys happier

It was comments like this that caused the hairs on the back of my neck to raise in the first place. :-(

Ian

 

[gavintc]

I suggest it depends on whether you rely on local income for your salary or whether someone else (state, pension fund) is paying. If you have a vested interest in the wealth of the area, I presume you will be quite happy to see new money coming in. If your salary is buttressed from the realities of the local economy then you take a more selfish view on local income generation. Personally, I think the etape is a force for good for Pitlochry and the local area.

 

[yello]

I guess I just wanted people to reflect that if a keen cyclist such as myself can see the "other side" of the argument then perhaps they also ought to give it some thought.

I think most people do see the other side. I think they do recognise that locals WILL be inconvenienced by road closures. It's a fairly easy thing to imagine on a personal level so I don't suspect anyone is hiding from the fact or pretending otherwise.

But as has been already said, such events will always inconvenience someone. And big events more so. If you're saying that one of the compromises that should have been made was to make it a smaller event then you are changing the nature of the event itself. That may not have interested the organisers and the event may not have happened. Who knows? We're in the world of 'what if'.

The fact is that the decision was taken on balance, compromises were made on both sides. That people would be inconvenienced was accepted as part of the price to pay. I cannot say how that balance was reached, whether it was right or wrong but I do accept the decision was made by people in a better position to judge than you or I.

Now obviously we can all draw up wish lists of how we might like such things to be decided but we can't reverse engineer a situation to get an answer we like. I personally wouldn't take part in a discussion about how future events should be run (since I don't feel qualified to say) but as far as the Etape Caledonian 2009 is concerned, I'm happy to accept that it was a balanced decision taking into account the real inconveniences that would be caused to the local population. Further, I feel quite within reason to condemn that person (or persons) that decided that they didn't like the decision and decided to cover the road in tacks.

 

[Will1962]

Following the sabotage of the Etape, it was discussed at great length in various newspaper forums. The overwhelming majority were highly critical of the anti-closed road brigade.

It is a fallacy to claim that the locals are against this event - it is only a (very vocal) small minority who are against it. Many people who were sceptical about the event when it was first announced have seen the benefits that it brings, and have got right behind it.

In Scotland we have a system of community councils. They have the responsibility to act as an interface between the local community and the council. Members are elected, and local councillors attend their meetings. The meetings are also open to members of the public, and is the forum for the community to raise their concerns with the elected councillors for the ward on all sorts of issues.

The Mid Atholl, Strathtay and Grandtully Community Council covers the area that is subjected to the longest road closures during the Etape Caledonia. It includes the business that the ACRE spokesperson runs in Grandtully. The minutes from their meetings from the last year are available online (http://www.grandtully.com/agendasandminutes.htm). If you read through them, you will see that they haven't even discussed the Etape Caledonia (they seem to be more concerned about blocked drains and red squirrel numbers, than roads being closed for a few hours on one day a year). If there was significant community opposition against the road closures then they would be discussing it.

Will