Expert Needed!!

[53-11]

Full refund received. Just prior to the actual trial, MSG decided to ask for 'mediation' where they offered a full refund. My opinion is that they realised that they didn't have a leg to stand on after all - but not before the in-laws had: been to the Bernds factory in Germany, hunted out and got opinion from various welding experts from various parts of the country, had to buy another folding tandem (Bike Friday - much superior imho), instigated & managed comms with various legal experts and suffered goodness knows how much stress fighting over many many months.

 

[alicat]

Well done! Hope they can put it behind them now.

 

[e-rider]

yes well, a few lessons to be learned from this experience then! Don't shop at MSG, don't spend £5K on a bike, and don't buy a bike that looks like a folding, Brompton tandem!

Being offered a refund and actually getting the money back are two very different things too!

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

We need to know who the manufaturer was so that others can be warned not to buy this make. The Consumer Magazine, Which? loves this kind of story, call them. They have no compunction about naming and shaming. They also have a powerful legal department that gets good redress, but I don't know if they would take on a case already happening before you subscribed to the service,worth a call to find out.

The MSG website says: ''Bernds steel frame, designed and built inhouse'' So you know what not to buy and where not to buy it.

 

[Johnnie]

A few years back I bought a tandem from MSG. It was lovely, as were the owners of MSG, who taught us how to ride it. I decided I wanted to change the type of handlebars fitted, and so I checked with the subject matter experts; MSG bikes. They in turn checked with the manufacturer (Landescape) who advised that I didn't use that type of bar, and I followed that advice. Simple.

I am not surprised by the latest post from 53-11. Having followed this thread (and read the post he has subsequently removed where he made prejudicial comments about an expert witness at the upcoming trial) he is clearly an individual who will do and say anything, regardless of either morality or legality, to get the outcome he wants. What worries me is that other cyclists who have rushed to this cause.

MSG bikes is a small community bike shop which supports cycling in the local community. It has been painted in these posts as some form of money grabbing monster, when the reality is it is the shop where the local kids go to get advice on how to fix their bike (I was one) and elderly folk get their punctures repaired. They also sell some really cool kit that is hard to find. In short, it is exactly the sort of bike shop any real cyclist wants to live near.

When you buy something top end and specialist, you have to take far more care of how you maintain and modify it than you would do with something more mainstream. If people such as 53-11 get their way, all cyclists will be able to buy are middle of the road 'standard' bikes from megastores. We won't be able to change components, because if we put on something that isn't designed to work with the machine, the shop will still be liable. I don't put shimmed seat posts on my carbon bike because the manufacturer says not to. Is this not reasonable? I don't put disc brake specific rims on bikes with rim brakes fitted.

Putting an additional suspension system (yes, an elastomer is suspension) on a suspension bike, directly against the manufacturer's recomendation, and without taking free guidance from the retailer, is a silly thing to do. If you do something silly, accept responsibility for the consequences. Don't bully and harangue a charming couple who run an excellent shop into surrender, and then boast about it. I truly believe MSG should (and would) have won this case.

I would recommend MSG as a retailer. I would recommend purchasing specialist equipment if you have either the expertise to look after it, or the common sense to ask those who do.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

A few years back I bought a tandem from MSG. It was lovely, as were the owners of MSG, who taught us how to ride it. I decided I wanted to change the type of handlebars fitted, and so I checked with the subject matter experts; MSG bikes. They in turn checked with the manufacturer (Landescape) who advised that I didn't use that type of bar, and I followed that advice. Simple.

I am not surprised by the latest post from 53-11. Having followed this thread (and read the post he has subsequently removed where he made prejudicial comments about an expert witness at the upcoming trial) he is clearly an individual who will do and say anything, regardless of either morality or legality, to get the outcome he wants. What worries me is that other cyclists who have rushed to this cause.

MSG bikes is a small community bike shop which supports cycling in the local community. It has been painted in these posts as some form of money grabbing monster, when the reality is it is the shop where the local kids go to get advice on how to fix their bike (I was one) and elderly folk get their punctures repaired. They also sell some really cool kit that is hard to find. In short, it is exactly the sort of bike shop any real cyclist wants to live near.

When you buy something top end and specialist, you have to take far more care of how you maintain and modify it than you would do with something more mainstream. If people such as 53-11 get their way, all cyclists will be able to buy are middle of the road 'standard' bikes from megastores. We won't be able to change components, because if we put on something that isn't designed to work with the machine, the shop will still be liable. I don't put shimmed seat posts on my carbon bike because the manufacturer says not to. Is this not reasonable? I don't put disc brake specific rims on bikes with rim brakes fitted.

Putting an additional suspension system (yes, an elastomer is suspension) on a suspension bike, directly against the manufacturer's recomendation, and without taking free guidance from the retailer, is a silly thing to do. If you do something silly, accept responsibility for the consequences. Don't bully and harangue a charming couple who run an excellent shop into surrender, and then boast about it. I truly believe MSG should (and would) have won this case.

I would recommend MSG as a retailer. I would recommend purchasing specialist equipment if you have either the expertise to look after it, or the common sense to ask those who do.

"Johnnie" you sound like you are MSG Bike. Your post sounds like a bleeding Ad for MSG. Or are you going to tell us you have no relation with MSG, and surprise surprise this just happens to be your first post?

You say "Putting an additional suspension system (yes, an elastomer is suspension) on a suspension bike, directly against the manufacturer's recomendation, and without taking free guidance from the retailer, is a silly thing to do. If you do something silly, accept responsibility for the consequences." - the "elastomer suspension" here is a saddle FFS, or do you call saddles "elastomer suspensions" in MSG land?

I am not the slightest bit surprised that MSG had to settle before the court ruling, it is because MSG did not have a case as I indicated earlier in this thread, and they have always known they have no case.

Shame on you/MSG!

Let me give you a tiny bit of free advice MSG - if you find yourself in a hole, you should stop digging. Instead of blaming the victims, you are better off coming clean, explaining why all this happened, and telling us what have you done to make sure it will never happen again. Additionally, on top of refunding the OP's parents, it is only fair that you should also give them a big cheque for all the troubles you have given them through NO fault of their own.

Over to you.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

That is exactly what I thought after reading the first two paragraphs. This guy is MSG, or posting on their behalf.
As far as I'm concerned I would never buy from MSG and I would warn anybody I know not to buy from them. These type of companies do not deserver to remain in business.

 

[Lanzecki]

Just caught up on this.

I bought a bike from MSG in the late 80's Early ninetys with no problems. Even a discount for a mark the owner said was on the frame that I couldn't see. Ahh The good old GT Karakoram. Stolen twice that bike was... Ahh the good old days.

That said, the bike the OP talks about was built incorrectly from his imformation. We never did get pictures of the broken welds. MSG as the retailer, were responsible cos trading standards say they were. They should have looked at the bike and sent it back to the manufacturer.. Their attitude was totally wrong, and a warning to people that might want to purchase from them. Customer service is everything.

Johnnie, How close are you to the owners? Just family, or directly involved in the shop?

 

[Graeme Willgress]

I just had to answer to this thread. I had a bike converted to a Rohloff hub by MSG bikes three years ago. It was completed quickly and the work quality was excellent. In 2012 they built me an expedition bike on which I've now ridden thousands of miles.
Their attention to detail and customer support has been excellent. To illustrate this I should add that the bike only exists due to their generosity and that that was freely offered to help my project along.
There have been no issues with the bike and I feel free to call for advice at any time I need to. I cannot recommend them highly enough.

 

[Spinney]

Sadly one example, as here, of appalling customer service is likely to have done them far more harm than any these glowing recommendations can fix...

 

[Johnnie]

I am no relation to the owners of MSG, have had no financial interest in the business, and have no connection whatsoever with the owners other than being a long term customer (though I did ride the Malvern Hills once in the early 90s in a Lancing Cycles shirt). The point I was trying to make is that I have been buying bikes, components and services from this business for 25 years and have never had any sort of a problem. There are a lot of posts on this thread from people who have never dealt with the business; I thought folks might be interested in hearing from someone who has. The point that Lanzecki makes above about receiving a discount on his GT for a mark he couldn't see is exactly in line with my experience; these folks are very honest. On this thread (of four pages) we have one unhappy customer, two happy customers, and a bunch of people who seem really angry about my local bike shop.

Bernds tell their customers not to use suspension saddles (I know this because after I read this thread I googled Bernds and had a look at their website). If you go against this instruction, and the frame breaks, is it built incorrectly, or has it been used outside of its design specification? I don't know why you can't use a suspension saddle, but they say don't and they seem to have been proved right. My understanding is that the goods have to be fit for the purpose they are sold to be used for, and Bernds folding tandems are sold to be used without suspension saddles.

Small independent bike shops only remain in business if they look after their customers, and I think MSG have been doing that for a really long time. This online cycling community is being niether 'fun nor friendly' with regard to this issue. Having a different view to the mob doesn't make me a plant.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

I just had to answer to this thread. I had a bike converted to a Rohloff hub by MSG bikes three years ago. It was completed quickly and the work quality was excellent. In 2012 they built me an expedition bike on which I've now ridden thousands of miles.
Their attention to detail and customer support has been excellent. To illustrate this I should add that the bike only exists due to their generosity and that that was freely offered to help my project along.
There have been no issues with the bike and I feel free to call for advice at any time I need to. I cannot recommend them highly enough.

Graeme, no doubt you feel gratitude to your sponsors and I'm sure they've gone out of their way to help you, but without addressing the issues 53-11 and his parents had, and why they went for mediation shortly before the court case was due, it still looks like there are unacceptable risks to MSG paying customers.

 

[Chris-H]

A few years back I bought a tandem from MSG. It was lovely, as were the owners of MSG, who taught us how to ride it. I decided I wanted to change the type of handlebars fitted, and so I checked with the subject matter experts; MSG bikes. They in turn checked with the manufacturer (Landescape) who advised that I didn't use that type of bar, and I followed that advice. Simple.

I am not surprised by the latest post from 53-11. Having followed this thread (and read the post he has subsequently removed where he made prejudicial comments about an expert witness at the upcoming trial) he is clearly an individual who will do and say anything, regardless of either morality or legality, to get the outcome he wants. What worries me is that other cyclists who have rushed to this cause.

MSG bikes is a small community bike shop which supports cycling in the local community. It has been painted in these posts as some form of money grabbing monster, when the reality is it is the shop where the local kids go to get advice on how to fix their bike (I was one) and elderly folk get their punctures repaired. They also sell some really cool kit that is hard to find. In short, it is exactly the sort of bike shop any real cyclist wants to live near.

When you buy something top end and specialist, you have to take far more care of how you maintain and modify it than you would do with something more mainstream. If people such as 53-11 get their way, all cyclists will be able to buy are middle of the road 'standard' bikes from megastores. We won't be able to change components, because if we put on something that isn't designed to work with the machine, the shop will still be liable. I don't put shimmed seat posts on my carbon bike because the manufacturer says not to. Is this not reasonable? I don't put disc brake specific rims on bikes with rim brakes fitted.

Putting an additional suspension system (yes, an elastomer is suspension) on a suspension bike, directly against the manufacturer's recomendation, and without taking free guidance from the retailer, is a silly thing to do. If you do something silly, accept responsibility for the consequences. Don't bully and harangue a charming couple who run an excellent shop into surrender, and then boast about it. I truly believe MSG should (and would) have won this case.

I would recommend MSG as a retailer. I would recommend purchasing specialist equipment if you have either the expertise to look after it, or the common sense to ask those who do.

Sounds to me like you are either MSG bikes, a relative or an employee, being your first post etc , be interesting to see if you become a regular poster or have just signed up to have your tuppence worth.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

I just had to answer to this thread. I had a bike converted to a Rohloff hub by MSG bikes three years ago. It was completed quickly and the work quality was excellent. In 2012 they built me an expedition bike on which I've now ridden thousands of miles.
Their attention to detail and customer support has been excellent. To illustrate this I should add that th

I am no relation to the owners of MSG, have had no financial interest in the business, and have no connection whatsoever with the owners other than being a long term customer (though I did ride the Malvern Hills once in the early 90s in a Lancing Cycles shirt). The point I was trying to make is that I have been buying bikes, components and services from this business for 25 years and have never had any sort of a problem. There are a lot of posts on this thread from people who have never dealt with the business; I thought folks might be interested in hearing from someone who has. The point that Lanzecki makes above about receiving a discount on his GT for a mark he couldn't see is exactly in line with my experience; these folks are very honest. On this thread (of four pages) we have one unhappy customer, two happy customers, and a bunch of people who seem really angry about my local bike shop.

Bernds tell their customers not to use suspension saddles (I know this because after I read this thread I googled Bernds and had a look at their website). If you go against this instruction, and the frame breaks, is it built incorrectly, or has it been used outside of its design specification? I don't know why you can't use a suspension saddle, but they say don't and they seem to have been proved right. My understanding is that the goods have to be fit for the purpose they are sold to be used for, and Bernds folding tandems are sold to be used without suspension saddles.

Small independent bike shops only remain in business if they look after their customers, and I think MSG have been doing that for a really long time. This online cycling community is being niether 'fun nor friendly' with regard to this issue. Having a different view to the mob doesn't make me a plant.

recommend them highly enough.

I'd say to MSG the right way to gain a good reputation is to take care of your clients the way they deserve and NOT getting people to sign up to the forum to defend MSG with stories that I don't believe.

I reiterate what I said earlier, in my book, MSG does not deserve to stay in business. Who knows how many other less persistent clients have lost out by doing business with MSG.

 

[andrew_s]

If you go against this instruction, and the frame breaks, is it built incorrectly, or has it been used outside of its design specification?

In this case, according to several experts, the frame was built incorrectly.