Expert Needed!!

[hopless500]

Sorry, but new member as of yesterday (Johnnie) and new member as of today (Graeme) both popping in to support MSG - why does that make me just a tad suspicious?? The thread has been pretty much dormant since May, until the OP update on Tuesday. Hmmmm........

 

[Lanzecki]

While We never did get to see pictures of the fault it sound's like poor welding technique. Anyone with any training would know that the priority in a weld is to get full penetration. A good weld will be stronger then the surrounding metal. That said, The frame is of questionable design. The hinge is at the most stressed point. While there isn't a better location for the hinge to be, consideration should be taken in the design phase.

Don't you love us internet experts. I have been welding Arc, MIG and recently TIG for may years with some certs.

MSG didn't make the bike. MSG's responsibility was to deal with, what we are assured, was a manufacturing fault. They appear to have failed to accept responsibility for the bad product until they got the the small claims court. Unfortunate. We've had two staunch defenses of MSG. Both brand new members who both found their way here extremely quickly. Make of it what you will.

I think we can all agree that the outcome was acceptable. All shops and companies need to keep their customers happy. MSG failed their customer in this instance. It's their fault they got this negative feedback.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

I can almost guarantee that the next supporting post would come from somebody joining the forum recently and with a few posts in the bag so not to appear a new member.

I don't think I have felt as proud of CC members before as now. We stand together for what is right. Nobody wants to be bullied by a cycling store.

 

[Spinney]

I think we can all agree that the outcome was acceptable. All shops and companies need to keep their customers happy. MSG failed their customer in this instance. It's their fault they got this negative feedback.

The final outcome was acceptable. What was not acceptable was the stress/hassle inflicted on the customers in getting to that point.

 

[MSG Bikes]

The Facts
Bernds Low Step MONO FRAME SUSPENSION tandem - This design is unique to Bernds.

1) The customer failed to read or ignored the manufacturer’s user’s instructions stating that fitting a suspension saddle is not permitted due to frame resonating. The user’s instructions are available on the manufacturer’s website www.bernds.de.

2) Manufacturers will only put limitations in their use in the operating instructions where computer simulation, direct testing or failures have revealed that the described action may lead to failure. A manufacturer would not put restrictions on their product, unless it was justified, as this would limit their sales. So READ the manual, by modifying your bike you will be invalidating your warranty.

3) For those of you out there that would question fitting a suspension saddle wouldn’t cause the frame to break, this is a low step, single beamed suspension tandem frame and is basically a beam suspended between 2 points, similar to a bridge. The stresses and strains on this design is very similar to a bridge – Google the Millennium Bridge (the wobbly bridge) and bear in mind pedaling action causes bobbing hence many suspension bikes have lock out to eliminate this. By fitting a suspension saddle & 2 riders on a suspension tandem would amplified the bobbing and this will cause metal fatigue. Google:-metal fatigue and multiple springs.

Why would you fit a suspension saddle to a suspension bike or tandem? We’re not aware of a single manufacturer that does this as it would be detrimental to the frame materials, as stated by Bernds.

Alasdair & Shelagh
MSG Bikes

 

[hopless500]

The underhandedness of either getting two people to become members and support MSG on the forum, or the owners themselves creating these, hasn't done MSG Bikes any favours at all.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

The Facts
Bernds Low Step MONO FRAME SUSPENSION tandem - This design is unique to Bernds.

1) The customer failed to read or ignored the manufacturer’s user’s instructions stating that fitting a suspension saddle is not permitted due to frame resonating. The user’s instructions are available on the manufacturer’s website www.bernds.de.

2) Manufacturers will only put limitations in their use in the operating instructions where computer simulation, direct testing or failures have revealed that the described action may lead to failure. A manufacturer would not put restrictions on their product, unless it was justified, as this would limit their sales. So READ the manual, by modifying your bike you will be invalidating your warranty.

3) For those of you out there that would question fitting a suspension saddle wouldn’t cause the frame to break, this is a low step, single beamed suspension tandem frame and is basically a beam suspended between 2 points, similar to a bridge. The stresses and strains on this design is very similar to a bridge – Google the Millennium Bridge (the wobbly bridge) and bear in mind pedaling action causes bobbing hence many suspension bikes have lock out to eliminate this. By fitting a suspension saddle & 2 riders on a suspension tandem would amplified the bobbing and this will cause metal fatigue. Google:-metal fatigue and multiple springs.

Why would you fit a suspension saddle to a suspension bike or tandem? We’re not aware of a single manufacturer that does this as it would be detrimental to the frame materials, as stated by Bernds.

Alasdair & Shelagh
MSG Bikes

www.msgbikes.com

Not deep enough? Then keep digging.

After you stated your "facts" why didn't you follow the case till the end?

Point 2 of your post. It's unreasonable for the company to sell bikes that a simple change of saddle would invalidate the warranty. For MSG to sell such product, in my opinion, makes MSG more interested in profits than addressing the needs of their customers.

If what you say is true then I don't understand why that product is in the market. Bicycles are items that people expect to modify to some extend and saddle modification must rank at the very top. Pedals, saddles, handlebars, stems, to name a few are components people upgrade without questioning whether they are invalidating the warranty, I think it would be unreasonable if it did invalidate it.

A responsible retailer would conclude that such limiting user instructions are not in the interest of their customers.

 

[MSG Bikes]

Point 2 of your post. It's unreasonable for the company to sell bikes that a simple change of saddle would invalidate the warranty. For MSG to sell such product, in my opinion, makes MSG more interested in profits than addressing the needs of their customers.

If what you say is true then I don't understand why that product is in the market. Bicycles are items that people expect to modify to some extend and saddle modification must rank at the very top. Pedals, saddles, handlebars, stems, to name a few are components people upgrade without questioning whether they are invalidating the warranty, I think it would be unreasonable if it did invalidate it.

A responsible retailer would conclude that such limiting user instructions are not in the interest of their customers.

The Bernds tandems are custom built to order, so the customer does have a choice of pedals, saddles, handlebars & stems at the time of ordering. Suspension saddles are not an option.

 

[Johnnie]

The reason I didn't post until I heard the matter was settled was because I believe in legal process and I do not agree with posting anything which might be prejudicial. I haven't posted on other matters here because they haven't been something I have had any particular expertise on, but I do read this forum, and this topic related to a bike shop I use regularly, so I thought folks might be interested in my experience. It seems some of you are really intolerant of people whose view is different to your own though. Occam's razor would suggest it is more plausible that myself and other other contributors who have reported good experiences with MSG are genuine customers, and the conspiracy theories are a little nuts. Does the fact that the pro-MSG side of this debate use their real names make them more or less credible in internet land? How should we prove we exist? Perhaps none of us exist, and the anti-MSG brigade are created by the in-laws, and the others by MSG.

Personally I don't believe a true welding expert would ever offer an opinion on a weld failure they hadn't seen. A failure could be due to design fault, it could be poor welding technique, or poor materials, it could be misuse, it could be corrosion, it could be a combination of the above. Without seeing it, who can say?

I would challenge the courageous members of CC to leave your keyboards, go to Lancing, and have a look round MSG. Talk to Shelagh and Alasdair in their tiny really cool shop, and see if they fit the image of 'corporate bullies' you have created for yourselves. If they try and force you to buy stuff that wouldn't suit you, or they are rude to you, then post about it. If they are friendly, enthusiastic, and helpful, post about that. A few more posts based on actual experience would be really valuable here.

 

[PpPete]

The Bernds tandems are custom built to order, so the customer does have a choice of pedals, saddles, handlebars & stems at the time of ordering. Suspension saddles are not an option.

And the welding defects ? Are the those on the customer choice list also ?
I do appreciate that MSG Bikes are not the party building the bike in question, and they've had they decency to come on here and put their case directly, but in their shoes I'd be reviewing their relationship with Bernds..

 

[Lanzecki]

Does the fact that the pro-MSG side of this debate use their real names make them more or less credible in internet land?

Not really. We are all contactable via email etc. It's just a name. An Identifier. Beyonce et al don't use their real names. I'm just like them . We are not hiding. My Names is Simon.

Personally I don't believe a true welding expert would ever offer an opinion on a weld failure they hadn't seen. A failure could be due to design fault, it could be poor welding technique, or poor materials, it could be misuse, it could be corrosion, it could be a combination of the above. Without seeing it, who can say?

Very true, several of us asked for pictures of the break. We were not supplied with any details apart from "Several experts have looked at the bike, and said it was a cold weld". We are also lead to understand that neither MSG or Bernds asked to look at the bike. How they knew the failure was down to a seat with some rubber in it without looking I don't know.

I note that MSG haven't made any comments on what the OP accused them of doing/not doing.

I fail to see how a well designed and manufactured frame could fail at a weld unless the weld was poor. I also fail to see how anyone could state what caused the failure without looking at it.

I would challenge the courageous members of CC to leave your keyboards, go to Lancing, and have a look round MSG.

Been there, but it turns out it was called Lancing cycles at the time. Don't know on the change of ownership. But at the time I was happy with them.

 

[Chris-H]

What I don't understand is msg state about metal fatigue causing the issue, yes I can understand what they are saying but NOT when it relates to a pair of small pensioners who probably weigh as much as half the maximum weight capacity of the bike, so in short a pensioner on a suspension seat on a gentle ride would NOT cause metal fatigue, certainly not enough to cause the damage that occurred.
Ok i'm outta here now

 

[PpPete]

The Facts
Bernds Low Step MONO FRAME SUSPENSION tandem - This design is unique to Bernds.

1) The customer failed to read or ignored the manufacturer’s user’s instructions stating that fitting a suspension saddle is not permitted due to frame resonating. The user’s instructions are available on the manufacturer’s website www.bernds.de.

2) Manufacturers will only put limitations in their use in the operating instructions where computer simulation, direct testing or failures have revealed that the described action may lead to failure. A manufacturer would not put restrictions on their product, unless it was justified, as this would limit their sales. So READ the manual, by modifying your bike you will be invalidating your warranty.

3) For those of you out there that would question fitting a suspension saddle wouldn’t cause the frame to break, this is a low step, single beamed suspension tandem frame and is basically a beam suspended between 2 points, similar to a bridge. The stresses and strains on this design is very similar to a bridge – Google the Millennium Bridge (the wobbly bridge) and bear in mind pedaling action causes bobbing hence many suspension bikes have lock out to eliminate this. By fitting a suspension saddle & 2 riders on a suspension tandem would amplified the bobbing and this will cause metal fatigue. Google:-metal fatigue and multiple springs.

Why would you fit a suspension saddle to a suspension bike or tandem? We’re not aware of a single manufacturer that does this as it would be detrimental to the frame materials, as stated by Bernds.

Alasdair & Shelagh
MSG Bikes

www.msgbikes.com

I'm almost prepared to buy this tale about bobbing and resonance causing metal fatigue, I've seen a fatigue failures in pieces of kit of kit that cost millions rather than thousands and for which the design had been checked many times by very competent engineers, and the bits in question fully qualified to withstand tens of millions of cycles at way higher than the expected loads - and yet they failed, and the only possible explanation is some kind of resonance effect.

However in none of the cases was the failure at a weld....generally it was at a stress riser at some point along what in this case would have been the "simple beam". In the heat affected zone adjacent to the weld - yes maybe, but not in the weld itself.

If there was, in this case, a restriction on suspension seatposts, and the customer had fitted such a seatpost, and the frame had failed, say near where the seatpost met the long horizontal beam, then yes just about plausible. But what is this "suspension saddle" ? Or reversing the question, can anyone name me a saddle that is fully rigid and has no "give" in it whatsoever? Would the restriction on "suspension saddle" mean that a customer should not fit a Brooks leather saddle (even the unsprung varieties of which move a damn sight more "suspension" than the 1mm which 53-11 tells us this one moved by? Even carbon fibre saddles with titanium rails and no gel padding move that much.

There is something very fishy in all this. MSG Bikes are, apparently, a reputable company with some loyal customers. What is it that caused them to fight this one to the door of the court, and having (wisely) given in at that point, then come back on here with this extraordinary defence. Did perhaps their relationship with Bernds break down so that Bernds wouldnt support them and they didnt want to stand the £4500 loss themselves? It would be a big "hit" for a small business to take. Or did the customer piss them off so much that they vowed not to give an inch, at least until their legal advisers told them it wasn't worth it?

Oh yes and why does a bike designed on simple beam theory cost so much, even if it is custom built in Germany?

 

[Spoked Wheels]

The Bernds tandems are custom built to order, so the customer does have a choice of pedals, saddles, handlebars & stems at the time of ordering. Suspension saddles are not an option.

One can order the saddle at the point of placing an order, which doesn't mean the customer would not want to change it. This forum is full of people that have changed their saddles many times in search of the right saddle, personally, it took me 7saddles before I found the one I like. I find it unreasonable to restrictions on Suspension Saddles.

This is a suspension saddle and I imagine they are very popular with older people.

 

[Tanis8472]

Just playing devils advocate, but i find it strange that folk on here are accusing others of being msg or friends etc when nobody has mentioned the fact that 53-11 has only 32 posts, and 80% of those are on this thread.

8 posts in other threads and the rest here.

Its like a lynch mob here now