Farnborough airport protest

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Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
When you say leisure travel, I assume you mean charter and normal scheduled flights with most seats occupied by non-"business" travellers. I think that the two categories are: 'private' and 'commercial', with military added on.
PS The idea that an airfield like Farnboro' has only one road entrance is laughable.
 
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Dolorous Edd

Senior Member
"Private flyers cause half of aviation’s global emissions" says the tw*t in the OP. Can someone help with a 'fact check'?

Edit - below is wrong see new post

It looks like the statistic comes from this report: https://www.transportenvironment.or...uper-rich-supercharge-zero-emission-aviation/

The report states in the summary at page 3 "Just 1% of people cause 50% of global aviation emissions" - but I haven't been able to find an explanation in the body text of how this has been estimated
 
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FishFright

More wheels than sense
"Private flyers cause half of aviation’s global emissions" says the tw*t in the OP. Can someone help with a 'fact check'?

BP leading the way (out, to net zero):

BP’s new purpose is reimagining energy for people and our planet.
The purpose is underpinned by an industry-leading ambition – for BP to become a net zero company by 2050 or sooner, and to help the world get to net zero - To deliver all this, BP will fundamentally transform its whole organisation, and maintain its commitment to performing while transforming.

They've been saying much the same for a decade or more. One day they will have to improve but not anytime soon.
 

Baldy

Über Member
Location
ALVA
"Private flyers cause half of aviation’s global emissions" says the tw*t in the OP. Can someone help with a 'fact check'?

BP leading the way (out, to net zero):

BP’s new purpose is reimagining energy for people and our planet.
The purpose is underpinned by an industry-leading ambition – for BP to become a net zero company by 2050 or sooner, and to help the world get to net zero - To deliver all this, BP will fundamentally transform its whole organisation, and maintain its commitment to performing while transforming.

So just how does a company that has producing Hydro - carbons as it's main operation become "net zero" without going out of business? Are they going to give up drilling/refining oil and find some other way of producing energy? Or is this just a load of old corporation speak for "we're going to carry on as always and bo**cks to you"?
 

Dolorous Edd

Senior Member
"Private flyers cause half of aviation’s global emissions" says the tw*t in the OP. Can someone help with a 'fact check'?

Source is a 2018 paper, written by two guys who think they understand maths, but don't. Key segment is:

In its A380 cabin layout, Singapore Airlines can transport 471 passengers, with 12 first class suites requiring about the same space as 60 business class seats (Flightglobal 2007). Together, these two classes (72 passengers) require the same space as 399 passengers in economy. This would suggest that premium flight classes require an average 5.5 greater energy demand than economy class seats. Even though aircraft layouts vary, a global 15% share of premium class seats that on average require 5 times more energy than an economy class seat would mean that premium class flights account for 40% of energy use, and economy flights (85% of seats) for 60%. Assuming further, conservatively, that the 10% of the most frequent fliers take 40% of all flights, including all those available in premium classes, the estimate is that the most frequent flier percentile accounts for 55% of energy use and emissions from commercial passenger transport. Given that at most 11% of the world population participate in air travel, this also means that 1% of the world population is responsible for 50% of emissions from all air travel.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959378020307779
 

presta

Guru
Most of those complaining about the insulation protesters blocking the road seem to run out of steam fairly quickly if you tackle them along these lines:

Why do they have to block the road, why not x or y instead?
The same reason you want them to do x or y, because that's easier to ignore.

Blocking the roads causes chaos.
Because inaction has to be made more inconvenient than policy change in order to stop people ignoring the problem.

Complain to the government then.
The government won't do anything people won't vote for.

What about the ambulances?
What about people drowning in floods, starving in famines, and burning in wildfires?

I'm sure not a single one of the protesters have ever set foot upon a plane. Cough.

In the recent fortnight of protests their leader was outed as driving her diesel car from Gloucester to London every day to partake. Turning the mass public against them will actually make their goals harder to achieve - if they really cared about the planet they'd stop all this right now, but their private actions and lifestyles show that they personally don't care a whit about it.
That line of argument just won't cut it. To fix this problem, it's going to take a lot more than a handful of people making martyrs of themselves for fear of being called a hypocrite, it'll need concerted action all over the globe at government level. Just like covid was controlled by lockdowns and vaccine development, not a handful of individuals.

I'd be willing to bet I'm consuming less than anyone else on this forum. I don't drive, I've had just one foreign holiday in 63 years, I eat a third of the meat of an average Brit, food waste is almost zero (~0.5%), other waste a fraction that of the neighbours, use clothes until they're worn out, and my house contents are either several decades old, or replaced worn out ones that were. Does anyone care, or even notice? Of course not, why would they.

Per head of population China's consumption emissions are lower than in the UK, but they still get told it's their job to cut down, not ours.

The one thing I could easily do but haven't is install cavity wall insulation. The reason that I don't is that CIGA have a well-earned reputation for not honouring the guarantee. Fix that, and I'll get it done.
Cavity Wall Insulation: Complaints - Monday 16 March 2020 - Hansard - UK Parliament
 

presta

Guru
The bottom line with the whole climate change thing is there are far too many people on the planet, using too much of it's natural resources, and still reproducing to make the whole cycle worse!
Population growth is largely under control, although it doesn't yet look like it. Reproduction rates are at roughly a sustainable level, but we're still waiting for those already born to grow up and have kids of their own before the global population stabilises at about 9bn.
See Hans Rosling here:
DON'T PANIC — Hans Rosling showing the facts about population - YouTube
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
Is this an argument for doing nothing then? When desertification increases, when droughts increase, when crops fail, when sea levels rise, all due to climate change, will the poor be having any less of a miserable time? As always, they will be on the sharp end of it. More of an argument for overcoming the issues and disagreements and taking action now.

Much of the global south is already experiencing the effects of climate change they didn't cause

But their voices and clout are tiny when up against the historically industrialised nations, who have got rich on the back of it all

Hence we have large debts to pay, and are obliged to help.

"Private flyers cause half of aviation’s global emissions" says the tw*t in the OP. Can someone help with a 'fact check'?

BP leading the way (out, to net zero):

BP’s new purpose is reimagining energy for people and our planet.
The purpose is underpinned by an industry-leading ambition – for BP to become a net zero company by 2050 or sooner, and to help the world get to net zero - To deliver all this, BP will fundamentally transform its whole organisation, and maintain its commitment to performing while transforming.

It's like the person who burnt down your house for money, offering to hire you a tent, and then expecting you to be greatful
When they can't find any more oil in the Arctic, I suspect.

Uhuh.
Greenwashing all the way.

In my view they should be up.in court on charges of negligent or deliberate eco- cide
So just how does a company that has producing Hydro - carbons as it's main operation become "net zero" without going out of business? Are they going to give up drilling/refining oil and find some other way of producing energy? Or is this just a load of old corporation speak for "we're going to carry on as always and bo**cks to you"?
That exactly,

They're still trying to get licences to drill.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
Population growth is largely under control, although it doesn't yet look like it. Reproduction rates are at roughly a sustainable level, but we're still waiting for those already born to grow up and have kids of their own before the global population stabilises at about 9bn.
See Hans Rosling here:
DON'T PANIC — Hans Rosling showing the facts about population - YouTube

And of course educating, and empowering women .

Making sure they have free access to reproductive health care.

That keeps population growth low or shrinking.

And enhances overall wellbeing and life expectancy, of existing population.

Nothing not to like :smile:
 
So just how does a company that has producing Hydro - carbons as it's main operation become "net zero" without going out of business? Are they going to give up drilling/refining oil and find some other way of producing energy? Or is this just a load of old corporation speak for "we're going to carry on as always and bo**cks to you"?

I suspect it's the usual hints of a magic future fuel to keep shareholders happy.

Remember these are the people who gave you Deepwater Horizon, and notoriously stopped attending community meetings once the cameras went home.
 
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a.twiddler

Veteran
It's interesting to view subjects from an alternative perspective at times, as it can put things in a different context. Without fossil fuels, life expectancy, general health and lifestyles would be far, far worse than they are today. Quite a few of the proposed measures deny that same thing for those yet to feel its benefits.

That's not saying do nothing, but the proposed measures will impact heavily and negatively on those same areas. A big part of the reason for that is that the measures are not driven by science, but by politics and an ignorance or at least a misunderstanding of the science.
Is this alternative perspective of which you speak not the mainstream view heavily promoted by oil, gas and coal interests, particularly in the US with their huge investments in self promotion and political donations, heavily funded efforts to discredit legitimate climate science research while astroturfing the public with their own often questionable science?

The worst of this is, like the tobacco companies before them, they have suppressed the knowledge found by their own researchers about the adverse effects of their product. Nicotine is hugely addictive, as well as toxic, and takes a great effort of will to give it up, and there are great societal health benefits in doing so. Ultimately though, it is the individual's decision, passive smoking notwithstanding. With climate change we are all likely to be affected, and with possibly unforseeable effects on future generations.

Is this the alternative perspective that we have had as background noise for so many decades that many people still actually believe that there is disagreement between scientists about climate change occurring or is just another conspiracy theory, when there is now pretty much international consensus that anthropogenic global warming is occurring at an ever increasing rate?

It's ironic that you say that the measures are driven by politics. The fossil fuel interests have used their financial leverage and the prospect of dire consequences on the economies of countries world wide to keep governments voting for measures that will protect them. The tiny voices of a few climate protesters and green parliamentarians have not had a lot of influence until recently, and suddenly they are seen as a threat when they are holding governments to account.

"Not driven by science", "Ignorance or at least a misunderstanding of the science". Classic arguments from the fossil fuel industry when faced with climate change statements?

There is no denying that there have been benefits to a segment of the world's population from the exploitation of coal, gas and oil over the last couple of centuries but the benefits have been to the industrialised nations of the Northern hemisphere in the main, while the increasing negative effects have been suffered world wide, and likely felt more in the less industrial southern hemisphere. So to speak of the denial of the alleged increase in lifespan, general health and lifestyle of those who wouldn't be exposed to the fossil fuel way of life due to your unspecified proposed measures seems rather disingenuous. The global culture reaches everywhere. Even if you haven't got modern sanitation or a transport infrastructure you are likely to have a mobile phone.

Why haven't the (non specified) poorer areas you mention got richer bearing in mind that the west have had large scale use of coal oil or gas for maybe 200 years? Maybe they will be no worse off and at least will be less liable to be flooded, or suffer drought, or wild fires. A bit of a non statement really.

If I am misappropriating comments I apologise but I just can't let such vague statements be. Maybe you are playing devil's advocate. Maybe you truly believe in what you write. I can't tell.

The movement to replace fossil fuel and reduce carbon output has an enormous mountain to climb. There are bound to be winners and losers but the biggest obstacle is the entrenched, established and well organised fossil fuel industry. If they were at all interested in changing to a greener image they have vast wealth at their disposal and could have started many years ago in even a small way. What happened to the expansion of hydrogen fuel cell technology? Why the current obsession with battery electric vehicles for example? Lithium resources are finite, the mining in third world countries is often done in appalling conditions for the workers with minimal environmental protection. It is highly toxic. A lot needs to be done, and governments are sitting on their hands.

I don't necessarily agree with the methods used by such as Extinction Rebellion and have no plans to park my posterior on a motorway anytime soon but they are making a point and trying to emphasise that time is getting short.
 
Is this alternative perspective of which you speak not the mainstream view heavily promoted by oil, gas and coal interests, particularly in the US with their huge investments in self promotion and political donations, heavily funded efforts to discredit legitimate climate science research while astroturfing the public with their own often questionable science?

The worst of this is, like the tobacco companies before them, they have suppressed the knowledge found by their own researchers about the adverse effects of their product. Nicotine is hugely addictive, as well as toxic, and takes a great effort of will to give it up, and there are great societal health benefits in doing so. Ultimately though, it is the individual's decision, passive smoking notwithstanding. With climate change we are all likely to be affected, and with possibly unforseeable effects on future generations.

Is this the alternative perspective that we have had as background noise for so many decades that many people still actually believe that there is disagreement between scientists about climate change occurring or is just another conspiracy theory, when there is now pretty much international consensus that anthropogenic global warming is occurring at an ever increasing rate?

It's ironic that you say that the measures are driven by politics. The fossil fuel interests have used their financial leverage and the prospect of dire consequences on the economies of countries world wide to keep governments voting for measures that will protect them. The tiny voices of a few climate protesters and green parliamentarians have not had a lot of influence until recently, and suddenly they are seen as a threat when they are holding governments to account.

"Not driven by science", "Ignorance or at least a misunderstanding of the science". Classic arguments from the fossil fuel industry when faced with climate change statements?

There is no denying that there have been benefits to a segment of the world's population from the exploitation of coal, gas and oil over the last couple of centuries but the benefits have been to the industrialised nations of the Northern hemisphere in the main, while the increasing negative effects have been suffered world wide, and likely felt more in the less industrial southern hemisphere. So to speak of the denial of the alleged increase in lifespan, general health and lifestyle of those who wouldn't be exposed to the fossil fuel way of life due to your unspecified proposed measures seems rather disingenuous. The global culture reaches everywhere. Even if you haven't got modern sanitation or a transport infrastructure you are likely to have a mobile phone.

Why haven't the (non specified) poorer areas you mention got richer bearing in mind that the west have had large scale use of coal oil or gas for maybe 200 years? Maybe they will be no worse off and at least will be less liable to be flooded, or suffer drought, or wild fires. A bit of a non statement really.

If I am misappropriating comments I apologise but I just can't let such vague statements be. Maybe you are playing devil's advocate. Maybe you truly believe in what you write. I can't tell.

The movement to replace fossil fuel and reduce carbon output has an enormous mountain to climb. There are bound to be winners and losers but the biggest obstacle is the entrenched, established and well organised fossil fuel industry. If they were at all interested in changing to a greener image they have vast wealth at their disposal and could have started many years ago in even a small way. What happened to the expansion of hydrogen fuel cell technology? Why the current obsession with battery electric vehicles for example? Lithium resources are finite, the mining in third world countries is often done in appalling conditions for the workers with minimal environmental protection. It is highly toxic. A lot needs to be done, and governments are sitting on their hands.

I don't necessarily agree with the methods used by such as Extinction Rebellion and have no plans to park my posterior on a motorway anytime soon but they are making a point and trying to emphasise that time is getting short.

No.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
Is this alternative perspective of which you speak not the mainstream view heavily promoted by oil, gas and coal interests, particularly in the US with their huge investments in self promotion and political donations, heavily funded efforts to discredit legitimate climate science research while astroturfing the public with their own often questionable science?

The worst of this is, like the tobacco companies before them, they have suppressed the knowledge found by their own researchers about the adverse effects of their product. Nicotine is hugely addictive, as well as toxic, and takes a great effort of will to give it up, and there are great societal health benefits in doing so. Ultimately though, it is the individual's decision, passive smoking notwithstanding. With climate change we are all likely to be affected, and with possibly unforseeable effects on future generations.

Is this the alternative perspective that we have had as background noise for so many decades that many people still actually believe that there is disagreement between scientists about climate change occurring or is just another conspiracy theory, when there is now pretty much international consensus that anthropogenic global warming is occurring at an ever increasing rate?

It's ironic that you say that the measures are driven by politics. The fossil fuel interests have used their financial leverage and the prospect of dire consequences on the economies of countries world wide to keep governments voting for measures that will protect them. The tiny voices of a few climate protesters and green parliamentarians have not had a lot of influence until recently, and suddenly they are seen as a threat when they are holding governments to account.

"Not driven by science", "Ignorance or at least a misunderstanding of the science". Classic arguments from the fossil fuel industry when faced with climate change statements?

There is no denying that there have been benefits to a segment of the world's population from the exploitation of coal, gas and oil over the last couple of centuries but the benefits have been to the industrialised nations of the Northern hemisphere in the main, while the increasing negative effects have been suffered world wide, and likely felt more in the less industrial southern hemisphere. So to speak of the denial of the alleged increase in lifespan, general health and lifestyle of those who wouldn't be exposed to the fossil fuel way of life due to your unspecified proposed measures seems rather disingenuous. The global culture reaches everywhere. Even if you haven't got modern sanitation or a transport infrastructure you are likely to have a mobile phone.

Why haven't the (non specified) poorer areas you mention got richer bearing in mind that the west have had large scale use of coal oil or gas for maybe 200 years? Maybe they will be no worse off and at least will be less liable to be flooded, or suffer drought, or wild fires. A bit of a non statement really.

If I am misappropriating comments I apologise but I just can't let such vague statements be. Maybe you are playing devil's advocate. Maybe you truly believe in what you write. I can't tell.

The movement to replace fossil fuel and reduce carbon output has an enormous mountain to climb. There are bound to be winners and losers but the biggest obstacle is the entrenched, established and well organised fossil fuel industry. If they were at all interested in changing to a greener image they have vast wealth at their disposal and could have started many years ago in even a small way. What happened to the expansion of hydrogen fuel cell technology? Why the current obsession with battery electric vehicles for example? Lithium resources are finite, the mining in third world countries is often done in appalling conditions for the workers with minimal environmental protection. It is highly toxic. A lot needs to be done, and governments are sitting on their hands.

I don't necessarily agree with the methods used by such as Extinction Rebellion and have no plans to park my posterior on a motorway anytime soon but they are making a point and trying to emphasise that time is getting short.

I'll be going as long to The COP to park my metaphorical posterior on the tarmac on behalf of the smaller scale and peasant farmer, in November .


To represent on behalf of the problems that farmers and food producers face, due to CC, but also talk about some the solutions wecan offer, in terms of carbon reduction sequestration , and food supply resilience.

Globally, not in just in UK.

It's mired in unfairness who gets to go , who gets to speak , who gets into the inner spaces.

Who has leverage, who doesn't .

As a representative of of union, of millions of peasant type farmers, who in turn feed billions of people world wide using place, and climate, and soil, and food sovereignty appropriate, methods.

I'm not expecting to 'influence' the suits so much.

The majority of it is networking among ourselves , at fringe and civil society events.


Showing solidarity with essential food and land workers across the globe.
Who do feed the world.

Many of whom of course cant be there because if cost, or visa, or covid restrictions .

All deeply unfair.

Given they're the ones who are the most affected.

So we are obligated to speak for them too..
As much as we can.

We shall see, .

I'm going with an open mind.
But not necessarily an overly optimistic heart.

But we can't stop now, at least trying.

And we can't stop talking about regenerative, soil building ,more human scaled, productive , biodiversity encouraging farming methods.

That can offer some hope, and many solutions

The COP in it itself is deeply flawed, organised, and even 'stitched up' between the players most culpable for CC in the first place

But it's perhaps our best, and only hope right now.

And no I'm not going by sprout powered bicycle.

I wish I had the time, to do that..

Just the train.
 
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