From Road CC - Mavic's superlight X-Tend
- Thread starter youngoldbloke
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mjr
Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
- Location
- mostly Norfolk, sometimes Somerset
I'm not sure but those were my suggestions. Seemed disliked too. It's a bit surprising that there still seems to be no good consensus answer.
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youngoldbloke
The older I get, the faster I used to be ...
bonzobanana
Guru
Lots of legal ways to have a ebike with a twist and go throttle. They were legal to sell upto about 2016 and still legal to use afterwards. I think Wisper do a range of individually tested ebikes which are legal to buy and its legal to fit a ebike kit with a twist and go throttle even today.
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/
Also on many ebikes you can have ghost pedalling where as long as you turn the cranks even if no resistance you have full twist and go functionality. That is fully legal within the EU legislation. It's a bit dangerous though as you have lag between turning the pedals and the throttle operating which is not ideal in fast moving urban traffic. Ideally for safety you want the throttle to respond immediately with your pedalling as you move away from junctions etc.
However it is not legal to buy a prebuilt ebike with a full speed (15.5mph) twist and go throttle unless it has individual type approval like some Wisper bikes.
This is all from a UK perspective possibly not Northern Ireland.
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youngoldbloke
The older I get, the faster I used to be ...
I wasn't proposing a legal definition! I think I'll carry on using the term 'non-e' or more likely 'un-assisted'.
Drago
Legendary Member
- Location
- Suburban Poshshire
Except there is no such thing as Type Approval - manufacturers must self declare their own compliance, the total opposite of the car world where vehicles and major assemblies are actually tested by the authorities and then formally granted type approval.
Ebikes are compliant instead of being type approved (or not as the case may be.) Having a bike from Foreignistan with a dodgy compliance label on th hub is mitigation in court, but not a defence. It is up to us to ensure our bikes are compliant, and the only reasonable means of that is to buy from reputable sources.
bonzobanana
Guru
No if you want a pre-built ebike with a full twist and go throttle in the UK you have to go through a type approval process which involves the supplier of the ebike getting each individual ebike tested and approved. Once tested it can be used like any other ebike in the UK without tax or insurance necessary. You don't need to do this though if converting your own bicycle or you bought a ebike before 2016. More information here;
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/wisper-announce-dvsa-approved-full-throttle-models/
I was a compliance officer for a large importing company and there were only some products we could self-declare most had to be independently tested by a test house and then we could self-declare compliance with the certification keeping the test report on file. Some larger factories for some of the products we tested did have the right test equipment and skills to self-test and certify but very rare. Most products would be tested by large test companies like TUV, Intertek etc and then there was testing houses associations like CNAS for Chinese products. The company I worked for had a site license for BSI so I looked at BSI bicycle certification but never saw a test report as we never imported bicycles so don't know if bicycle manufacturers could self-test or not I suspect the large factories would self-test but self-testing is not very commercially advantageous as most importers want to see independent testing to make sure the certification isn't fake. As a company we wouldn't order goods until we were satisfied with the certification and test reports except on rare occasions for factories we trusted and we had to meet shipping deadlines. Anyway I'm sure this is the normal procedure for normal EU certification and the CE labelling process of ebikes I was only making the point about type approval for twist and go throttle ebikes.
Ming the Merciless
There is no mercy
- Location
- Inside my skull
Human powered
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youngoldbloke
The older I get, the faster I used to be ...
But my ebikes are partially human powered - without my input they wouldn't move -100% human powered above 15.5mph, and when the assistance is switched off.
(I don't have throttles! If I'm talking to those who know little about e-bikes the niceties regarding throttles and their legality are somewhat irrelevant, it's important to point out that - in the majority of cases, and certainly in my case - you have to pedal to get the bike to go!)
*Edited to satisfy the pedants amongst us
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bonzobanana
Guru
Many twist and go ebikes are still more human powered than pedelecs. For legal motors a direct drive hub motor is probably somewhere between 25-45Nm torque, a geared hub motor 20-70Nm torque and a mid-drive motor 40-110Nm torque so people with high power e-mountain bikes with mid-drive motors rely much more on motor power for hills etc. A twist and go throttle still means you are peddling most of the time, above 15.5mph and more on hills. It just makes it safer as there is no delay in operating you have immediate power when you want it. Of course you have the option to twist and go without pedaling but this is unlikely to do much for you with the 250W restriction and hills and will cut down range considerably. Really it gives you a little breather on slight inclines and flat roads if you want it. Maybe you want to focus on enjoying the scenery or something. The whole point of a twist and go throttle is it gives you full power range at your control instantly so you could use it as a bailout option only and only twist the throttle when you are struggling with a hill in comparison cadence and torque sensors are typically setup to use power all the time to lesser or greater extent depending on setting. So it is much easier with a twist and go throttle to use power more sparingly. The clutch mechanism of geared hub motors typically has no drag at all so is the easiest type of ebike to use in acoustic mode or whatever you call it as geared hub motors and their battery are typically much lighter than mid-drive motors. They don't have high current demands like mid-drive motors typically so the battery is much smaller capacity.
Pale Rider
Legendary Member
I think you'll struggle to find an ebike that is throttle only.
Most have at least a cadence and speed sensor which means you are using power all the time you are moving forward.
The throttles are not very sensitive, but they do give you immediate access to full beans.
It might be more accurate to say a throttle makes it much easier to use power more lavishly.
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youngoldbloke
The older I get, the faster I used to be ...
- and it doesn't have a throttle!
bonzobanana
Guru
Lots of kits are throttle only which is legal and most of the world has ebikes with throttles only. If you buy a ebike in designed for Asia or the US but imported into the UK there may be a full throttle option available with a display setting hack.
I think most throttles are using hall sensors to indicate position, they may not be fully variable although some are. You probably get at least 6 different power levels plus a 0 no assistance starting position. I think the point of the throttle is you aren't using power all the time unlike torque and cadence sensors so much easier to save power but also use full power if that is what you want, the rider has full control of power. It's down to the controller and how it interpretes throttle input. On simple controllers with very little logic circuitry they often work best with a throttle as that is what they were originally designed to use. For example a violamart ebike kit has a variable throttle control but because of EU legislation comes with a cadence sensor to work as a pedelec but as soon as the controller senses the crank rotating it gives full power which is very dangerous but works brilliantly with the throttle control instead which is what it was designed for. Other cheaper pre-built ebikes have power modes that only cut off by speed but give full power up until those cut off speeds, it could be 3 power settings and you get power until 8mph, 12mph and 15.5mph. Not only does instant full power make it more dangerous but there is a delay before crank rotation is sensed and full power means a higher discharge rate for the battery pack which will shorten its life. It's all negative really. The simplicity of throttles means they are very reliable too. The vast majority of ebikes in the world are throttle controlled or have a full function throttle fitted. In some markets like China and India lead acid gel batteries are used which are cheaper and safer too. It's easy to have a false perspective by looking too closely at the UK or European market but the overall world market is very different . Throttles are the most common power control by far and lead acid batteries dominate in many markets in Asia, Africa and South America etc.
Europe is the home of short life disposable high cost products and that definitely includes ebikes. We are paying roughly ten times as much for ebikes than China and twice as much as the US on average.
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youngoldbloke
The older I get, the faster I used to be ...
I think this thread has been completely derailed. Has anyone any more comments regarding the recently announced Mavic Extend system?
Pale Rider
Legendary Member
Does it have a throttle?
