Front shifter from 3 x 10 with 9 speed?

[davidphilips]

I should have listened to the German engineers. That must be the reason my 10-speed chains keep on breaking. Also why I hardly get 100kms on one before it is kaput.

I don't suppose it has occurred to you that a narrower ladder may still have the same thickness uprights and that the shorter rungs are stiffer than their wider cousins?

Lol, Agree with everything you have wrote except of course the joke about breaking and 100kms, mind if i ask one thing about thin/narrower chains ,
would a 7/8 speed chain of the same quality last longer than a thinner 9 or 10 speed chain perhaps having a larger bearing surface?

PS, I know there are many myths about many aspects of engineering and some even started to lead to better sales of products but i think i would rather listen to some one who has worked on, studied and even wrote about,now who could this be? (Yellow Saddle)

 

[Blue Hills]

? They're made from the same stuff, the technology is mature.

Agh yellow, but haven't you hit on something though? Companies don't like mature markets where customers twig that stuff is much of a muchness. For then prices just get driven down year on year on while the customers enjoy their pastime. So, they bring out new stuff, with inevitable compatibility issues, which means folk have to buy yet more stuff. You clearly know your stuff on chains, but even if the higher speed chains and attendant bits are just as strong, they are surely more expensive. And for average non racers offer no meaningful advantage surely? Aren't they also more prone to going out of adjustment.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

would a 7/8 speed chain of the same quality last longer than a thinner 9 or 10 speed chain perhaps having a larger bearing surface?

According to that book, the roller and bearing surface looks like this:

If you look at these plates, you'll see that the bushing has been swaged (pressed) directly into the plate and the roller moves freely on that.

This pressing is done when the metal is still soft (before heat treatment) and as you can imagine, the transition from plate to bushing (the 90 degree bend) is a somewhat iffy affair in that there has to be a bit of a radius to bend the metal.

Newer (narrower) chains have an extra step in the manufacturing process where the swaging is done in two stages. The result is that the transition from plate to bushing is sharper, leaving more bushing material on the other side of the plate that you can't see. (I don't have a handy photo available to show the other side). In other words, with a more precise swaging, you can create more contact area even when the chain is made narrower. This makes it more expensive, but more durable. The contact area in a 11-speed is about the same as in a 8-speed chain. All else being the same, the two will last equally long.

The two photos above show how they managed to make the chain narrower without sacrificing internal space (i.e. bearing contact space). The top chain is a 9-speed on and the rivets protrude slightly. The bottom one is 11-speed and the rivets are absolutely flush. This saves about 0.3mm but cost a lot more to make because of a two-stage peening pass and a chamfer in the plate to help with the countersinking of the rivet.

All that's new isn't worse than yesterday's nostalgia.

My father used to restore and collect vintage cars. Wherever he went someone would invariably knock on the car's body and say "they don't make them like this anymore" The old man used do say "no, they make them better nowadays" and then, "don't bloody knock on my car."

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Agh yellow, but haven't you hit on something though? Companies don't like mature markets where customers twig that stuff is much of a muchness. For then prices just get driven down year on year on while the customers enjoy their pastime. So, they bring out new stuff, with inevitable compatibility issues, which means folk have to buy yet more stuff. You clearly know your stuff on chains, but even if the higher speed chains and attendant bits are just as strong, they are surely more expensive. And for average non racers offer no meaningful advantage surely? Aren't they also more prone to going out of adjustment.

I don't believe in conspiracies. Customers can choose to stay with whatever old technology they want. But the business of newer-is-better is customer-driven. Customers want new stuff and suppliers respond. If only Shimano had 11-speed, guess what would have happened to SRAM or Campagnolo?

They are not going to make a killing in the retro market, they will die. Consumers force them to innovate and as reluctant as they appear, they gladly pay the cost of innovation. I've described the rationale behind costlier chains in the post above.
Does Joe Average get an advantage from newer stuff? He-she seems to think so because they pay for it.
There are no meaningful adjustment problems with modern super-multi-speed gear. The quality is good.

 

[hoopdriver]

Gee if only Rohloff had you on their staff. They'd still be making fine bicycle chains, in 10 and 11 speed widths, and positively rolling in the coin.

I see what you are saying about wide and narrow ladders and there is a superficial logic there. But to make all that work on a chain 5.5mm wide requires a degree of precision that is not generally found in mass production these days, whatever the theoretical possibilities might be.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Gee if only Rohloff had you on their staff. They'd still be making fine bicycle chains, in 10 and 11 speed widths, and positively rolling in the coin.

I see what you are saying about wide and narrow ladders and there is a superficial logic there. But to make all that work on a chain 5.5mm wide requires a degree of precision that is not generally found in mass production these days, whatever the theoretical possibilities might be.

Go knock on vintage cars and sow your wisdom there. Mass production has come a long way since the Model T Ford.

Wait 'till you see how they mass produce the tilt sensor in your phone.

 

[hoopdriver]

Uh-huh. You must be living in a different world than the rest of us who very often find ourselves returning shoddy goods, seeking refunds, or simply disposing of cheaply made mass produced stuff. We live in a disposable culture

As to phones, I don't suppose the masterpiece of technology you're thinking of is the Samsung Galaxy Note 7, is it?

 

[Ajax Bay]

You must be living in a different world than the rest of us who very often find ourselves returning shoddy goods, seeking refunds, or simply disposing of cheaply made mass produced stuff. We live in a disposable culture

I do not recognise this world of which you speak. I very rarely find myself returning shoddy goods etc etc. You may live in a "disposable culture" (and that's fine) but please don't assume "we" are similarly wallowing around. I change a chain because it has elongated, not because it has parted. This is not 'disposable': this is 'consumable'.

 

[Bazzer]

Gee if only Rohloff had you on their staff. They'd still be making fine bicycle chains, in 10 and 11 speed widths, and positively rolling in the coin.

I see what you are saying about wide and narrow ladders and there is a superficial logic there. But to make all that work on a chain 5.5mm wide requires a degree of precision that is not generally found in mass production these days, whatever the theoretical possibilities might be.

Really? Pretty much every form of engine driven form of transport is manufactured to precise tolerances. Even down to areas such as door gaps.

 

[hoopdriver]

I do not recognise this world of which you speak. I very rarely find myself returning shoddy goods etc etc. You may live in a "disposable culture" (and that's fine) but please don't assume "we" are similarly wallowing around. I change a chain because it has elongated, not because it has parted. This is not 'disposable': this is 'consumable'.

Exactly - a bicycle chain is a consumable and if you are expecting it to be machined and manufactured cheaply yet with the precision of the Large Hadron Collider you are dreaming. They are made as cheaply as possible with tolerances commensurate with their cost.

If you doubt we live in a disposable culture, check out the prices of appliance repair or computer repair against the prices of replacement, or ask yourself why insurance write-offs for cars is the norm. We don't repair anymore, we replace

 

[hoopdriver]

Really? Pretty much every form of engine driven form of transport is manufactured to precise tolerances. Even down to areas such as door gaps.

And you believe these same precise tolerances exist right across the range of automobiles? From the lowliest Lada to the latest Rolls? When you go to a shop to pick up a new bicycle chain you just tell the chap behind the counter to give you any old chain, they're all the same, all precision engineered to the highest tolerances in this Brave New World of ours? Really?

 

[davidphilips]

Think its about time to agree to disagree most of us see things the way they are or the way we would like them to be? Any one see this utube clip about seeing something and considering it may be something other that what we think?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_fmUYyWSyE

 

[Ajax Bay]

Exactly - a bicycle chain is a consumable and if you are expecting it to be machined and manufactured cheaply yet with the precision of the Large Hadron Collider you are dreaming. They are made as cheaply as possible with tolerances commensurate with their cost.
If you doubt we live in a disposable culture, check out the prices of appliance repair or computer repair against the prices of replacement, or ask yourself why insurance write-offs for cars is the norm. We don't repair anymore, we replace

"if you are expecting it to be machined and manufactured cheaply yet with the precision of the Large Hadron Collider you are dreaming"
Who is expecting, dreaming or suggesting this combination? Chains are made to fairly simple specifications. Some will be lighter; some shinier; some coloured.
"ask yourself why insurance write-offs for cars is (sic) the norm"
In order to scope the rhetorical question you invite me to pose, would you care to quantify what you mean by "the norm"? I rather doubt that this is the modal outcome of an insurance claim after a car is damaged. Are you relaying this from a reputable source?

 

[hoopdriver]

You are kidding, aren't you?

I am well aware that bicycle chains are consumable and of relatively simple design - which means when you make them narrower and lighter they are less likely to be durable. Sure, in theory one can engineer them to as strong and durable and thin as you like, but in practice, and given the commercial realities of mass production, they are inevitably going to fall somewhat short of that ideal.

As to the other matters or repairs and write-offs, if you are not aware that we in the West are living in a disposable culture you really need to get out a bit more. Costs of repair very often exceeds the cost of replacement - be it with cars, appliances, computers, mobile phones, etc.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Is it just me or are there big fat blowflies buzzing around tonight?

You are kidding, aren't you?

I am well aware that bicycle chains are consumable and of relatively simple design - which means when you make them narrower and lighter they are less likely to be durable. Sure, in theory one can engineer them to as strong and durable and thin as you like, but in practice, and given the commercial realities of mass production, they are inevitably going to fall somewhat short of that ideal.

As to the other matters or repairs and write-offs, if you are not aware that we in the West are living in a disposable culture you really need to get out a bit more. Costs of repair very often exceeds the cost of replacement - be it with cars, appliances, computers, mobile phones, etc.

You seem to think that disposable goods and mass production are on two different tangents. They are not.
I'll can list many, but I'll restrict myself to you one example of a superbly-engineered, superbly-disposable item. Have a look at the red lid of that bottle of Fairy liquid under your sink. Unscrew it. Flip it open and click it closed. Have a look at the superb engineering that went into it. Look for die webbing lines - there are none. Look for machining marks - again none. Have a look at the tolerances required to make it snap open and closed. Look at the hing design and see how it perfectly brings the top down on the spout with super precision. Now think of its cost and the speed of manufacture and quantities made. Now throw it away and think nothing of it.

The two concepts are not tugging at opposite ends of the line. The one leads to the other.

As for chains....well you are just speaking through your nose if you think they cannot be made with precision. I have explained the mechanism of increased durability but you seem to dis-regard it and hammer on with your prejudices. Your world is an ignorant, cynical, hostile, dishonest and predatory one and they are out to get you. Sleep tight.