Froome and Wiggins TUEs

[ColinJ]

Anyone who starts quoting Mr Kimmage (aka MR Campaign) is probably on a loser. That gentleman became obsessional then could find no evidence to support his interesting theories. I wonder if he has managed to do the same with rugby - ah, no, might get a visit from a few big lads...

I'm not sure that a visit from a peeved Lance Armstrong would be a very pleasant experience either!

 

[SheilaH]

If it is a matter of belief then there is no way forward just like religious debates. Froome has a bit more pedigree than you give him credit for but that won't change the thrust of your argument. I discount Kimmage because he went into Clinic mode some time ago, although to his credit he has highlighted rugby as having proven problems.

IMHO, Froome is certainly an outlier. Whether this is natural, developed or aided in some unspecified way is not known. In that case, I regard him as not guilty until proven otherwise. While this state remains, we will never agree, not least because of the "you can't prove a negative" angle

What about the team-wide aspect. Do you think they are all on the juice?

Thats interesting, your post was edited by a moderator. I missed the original. Probably a good thing.

You ask me about whether I think the whole of Team Sky are 'juiced' and by this I assume you mean banned substances rather than Wiggins-style use of known PEDs enabled by the TUE system?

The answer is I dont know and Im not going to speculate. Im not going to speculate on Froome's potential use of banned substances either because I don't know and I have no evidence. What I do know is that Froome's sudden progress is not normal. You agree with this because you say he is an "outlier". That, however, still does not explain why it is that his enormous talent didnt show itself at an earlier date.

With regards to Kimmage, you say that "he went into clinic mode", but you dont expand on what you mean by this. What I will say about Kimmage is that he accused Armstrong outright of being a doper and years later was proved right. He hasnt done the same with Team Sky. He has questioned the sincerity of their 'whiter than white' mantra and again, with the Fancy Bears hack release of Wiggins's TUE use before major stage races in contradiction of Sky's stated policy, yet again he has been proved right. All along he has said that Team Sky have questions to answer and that is something with which even those defending Sky on this thread seem to accept.

 

[smutchin]

Froome's "unbelievable" progress in the sport is not really any less believable than that of Cadel Evans, who waited until his mid-30s to become a world-beater on the road.

And Carlos Sastre hardly set the world alight before he won the Tour.

Ryder Hesjedal is another late bloomer...

Trouble is, it's hard to say what is and isn't plausible when there are so few reliable benchmarks to compare against in the recent history of the sport. Or even the long term history of the sport.

 

[coldash]

Thats interesting, your post was edited by a moderator. I missed the original. Probably a good thing.

Was it? I can't think why. It doesn't look any different to me and certainly didn't contain anything offensive or personal. I haven't been contacted by a moderator so I've no idea what the score is

Any idea how I find out?

PS. I've reported your post solely to ask the mods what is going on. It's not a complaint against you in any way

MOD INFORMATION EDIT:
The post was Edited to remove a double-quote of SheilaH's post. That's all.

 

[Supersuperleeds]

Wasn't Froome a late bloomer because of the parasitic infection that wasn't found until after he joined Sky?

 

[coldash]

Froome's "unbelievable" progress in the sport is not really any less believable than that of Cadel Evans, who waited until his mid-30s to become a world-beater on the road.

And Carlos Sastre hardly set the world alight before he won the Tour.

Ryder Hesjedal is another late bloomer...

Trouble is, it's hard to say what is and isn't plausible when there are so few reliable benchmarks to compare against in the recent history of the sport. Or even the long term history of the sport.

Agreed but with Ryder we do know what helped him at some point in his career

 

[coldash]

.What I do know is that Froome's sudden progress is not normal. You agree with this because you say he is an "outlier".

No, that is not what I meant. What I mean is that his current performance is that of an outlier. Whether that is due to his vastly improved power to weight ratio, the curing of the illness that I can't spell, the training or the factor x that people alleged, I don't know. His progress is another matter and has been pointed out, not altogether atypical. I'm not sure this changes / adds much, I know!

I think that Quintana is also an outlier

 

[SheilaH]

Froome's "unbelievable" progress in the sport is not really any less believable than that of Cadel Evans, who waited until his mid-30s to become a world-beater on the road.

And Carlos Sastre hardly set the world alight before he won the Tour.

Ryder Hesjedal is another late bloomer...

Trouble is, it's hard to say what is and isn't plausible when there are so few reliable benchmarks to compare against in the recent history of the sport. Or even the long term history of the sport.

To be fair Evans was a latish arrival to the road, coming from MTB where he had won the World Cup, twice. Also, we know that Evans has admitted to working with Ferrari...although he claims it was not for doping advice.

More to the point though, Evans, Sastre and Hesjedal are not appropriate comparators to Froome. Evans and Sastre won one Tour apiece, Hesjedal has no Tour wins (but one Giro).

Froome has 3 Tour wins. It is arguable that he could have had 5 wins by now if he hadnt crashed out in 2014, and if he had ridden for himself in 2012, which would have made him one of the five greatest Tour riders ever.

And he hasnt finished yet....he may still get to 5. But as it stands he is still in a totally different league to Evans, Hesjedal and Sastre. His current Tour record is akin to Lemond, his potential Tour record is akin to Indurain, Hinault, Anquetil and Merckx....and we all know that they were not late bloomers.

 

[ColinJ]

Anybody who wins a Grand Tour is going to be an 'outlier'; if they were 'normal' then they would not be good enough to do it!

The question is, were they born an outlier, or boosted to become one ...

 

[coldash]

SheilaH. In case you didn't see this note from the Mods

The post was Edited to remove a double-quote of SheilaH's post. That's all.

 

[smutchin]

To be fair Evans was a latish arrival to the road, coming from MTB where he had won the World Cup, twice.

Yeah, hence I specified road in my post. MTB and Road are very different. How many people successfully make that transition?

More to the point though, Evans, Sastre and Hesjedal are not appropriate comparators to Froome. Evans and Sastre won one Tour apiece, Hesjedal has no Tour wins (but one Giro).

You call Froome a late bloomer but he's still younger than any of those three were when they won their GTs. He's also younger than Horner when he won the Vuelta.

would have made him one of the five greatest Tour riders ever.

There's also the possibility that he is that good... and competing in a cleaner era (cleaner, not clean). And maybe also pushing the limits of the rules more than his rivals...

his potential Tour record is akin to Indurain, Hinault, Anquetil and Merckx....and we all know that they were not late bloomers.

We also know that the sport was very different in their day, in many ways. We also know Anquetil's publicly stated attitude to doping and that Merckx was busted three times.

 

[Pro Tour Punditry]

He's also younger than Horner when he won the Vuelta.

@rich p and I are younger than Horner when he won the Vuelta!!

 

[SheilaH]

He might be that good.

But why did he only become that good in the autumn 2011, when a few months previously he had been really quite crap?

Did the sport suddenly become cleaner in a matter of weeks? From dirty to clean (er) in the space of a summer?

 

[Pro Tour Punditry]

Whay aboot Sirbrad? He couldnae even ride a bike proper

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qMM2r_42bA

 

[coldash]

@rich p and I are younger than Horner when he won the Vuelta!!

I'm not sure this proves much in that I think Methuselah was younger than Horner. Now that was a race that left a few questions unanswered (I know this is OT)