Full 20 mph city limit - a return to non drivers owning their town?

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Linford

Guest
[QUOTE 2831414, member: 45"]Cheltenham is 45 minutes south of Birmingham. Please stay relevant to the post you're quoting.[/quote]

I'm not convinced that they might have any more of a clue in Birmingham than anywhere else(or my town....see what I did there :thumbsup:)...they all seem to have come from numpty city college...
 

Platinum

Active Member
The towns in these new trials are not just normal everyday villages with sleepy residential streets which we can happily slap on 20mph signs with few problems. These are major trunk roads with the vast majority through traffic. Like I said in my post above, ALL traffic heading north and south between Edinburgh and Carlisle will pass through either Biggar or Langholm, two of the places mentioned for these 20mph trials.

It's not an official trunk road but the A91 at Muckhart has a 20mph limit. It's a major through road carrying traffic from Fife towards Stirling. All the limit succeeds in is pissing people off. Other towns and villages along the same road have 30mph limits. You've been happily driving at 60mph in the country and 30mph in the villages, it's pattern we're all used to. When you come to the twenty, it just seems incomprehensible, like nails dragging down a blackboard, your mind is all perturbed at this alien and incomprehensible spanner that's been put in your A to B works. Regardless of all the arguments, it just doesn't make logical sense from a drivers pov. Which is why the vast majority of traffic I've seen doesn't stick to it, some over 40mph. Traffic volumes are still too high and unpleasant to encourage walking and cycling, then once you're out of the village you're back on twisting 60mph country roads carrying the same volume of traffic anyway only faster. (A cyclist was killed on the A91 at Gateside this summer). On the other hand the very same A91 passes through Cupar, where it has a 30mph limit, but on the busy shopping streets traffic naturally travels at around 20mph, below the speed limit, because this is a place where it's narrow, busy, lots of people, parked cars and no central line, the environment screams that this is a place where traffic should slow, and magically it does, and as a driver it doesn't feel weird, you don't feel as though you're having to hold yourself back. (As a side note, I don't know if I want them to make this an official 20mph limit, it might make people think they can speed up!)

So, even if you can find that magic formula, you achieve that elusive 20mph with actual measured speed of vehicles, not theoretically on a sign post - it's still not a pleasant place to cycle or walk, to cross the road, or when the pavement narrows, if you're looking after kids, if you want to sit and eat a sandwich, if you want to chat with your friends..... because traffic volumes esp lorries is still very high. They still make noise, pollute, amber gamble, split towns in two. The vast majority of though traffic probably wish they didn't have to go through the town and all that palaver too.

If the people of Langholm and Keith Davies think that a 20 limit will solve all their problems then I think they are very wrong. Sure, you're better of being hit by something going at 20mph than 30mph but it's not just speed that makes roads unpleasant places to be. You don't just put in a 20mph limit like a sticking plaster and hope that somehow all that traffic just melts away and the street will become a lively pleasant place where you can shop in peace, cafe culture, your kids can play. If only things were that simple.

Nope, I'm of the opinion that roads should be fit for purpose. I'm not anti-car. No one argues the M25 or the Edinburgh bypass is anti-car. Through traffic has a purpose, and we all need to do it at some point, hopefully in as pleasant and stress-free a way as possible. Residential areas should reduce the amount of traffic passing through as well as speeds. I don't want to be driving through villagers' space as much as they don't want me to be there either. Which is why I support Dutch methods of classifying roads according to their purpose and designing for that, rather than the other way around. I've driven hundreds of miles around the Netherlands and practically the only times you have to go into a town centre is if you have business there, and when you are there, you still don't have to pass through the quieter residential streets. I just don't understand why the British public is so vehemently against bypasses, when even the smallest of Dutch villages have them, making life more pleasant for everyone, villagers and drivers. They've also just got such an incredibly dense motorway network, there's just no need to drive long distance on small single carriageways through towns, and they're still building more! Jeez I could go on forever about how we need more motorways across the whole of the UK. Langholm itself says they can't build a bypass, it's too difficult or its too expensive. There are countless examples of mind-boggling Dutch engineering and design, and they don't start things with "here's the list of reasons why we can't do this". The truth is the people of Langholm don't want to lose their golf course (in a country with the most golf courses per head in the world). They're choosing a little recreation (which frankly a lot of people are not interested in) over the future of their town. They adopted Neil Armstrong, but cannot themselves think big, beyond their narrow horizon, beyond "it's what we've always done".
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
The towns in these new trials are not just normal everyday villages with sleepy residential streets which we can happily slap on 20mph signs with few problems. These are major trunk roads with the vast majority through traffic. Like I said in my post above, ALL traffic heading north and south between Edinburgh and Carlisle will pass through either Biggar or Langholm, two of the places mentioned for these 20mph trials.
No it won't. Most of it will go via Glasgow and the motorways. If there are 20mph zones in place even more of it will. Traffic follows the line of least resistance. Put a block in place and it goes somewhere else.

This is the exact parallel to the argument I've made pointing out why I think archie_tect and others are nuts to want to upgrade the A1 through Northumberland to a dual carriageway - it will just attract traffic.
 

bof

Senior member. Oi! Less of the senior please
Location
The world
Exactly what happened here:

stop-de-kindermoord-1974.jpg




http://lcc.org.uk/pages/holland-in-the-1970s

He was Dutch Prime Minister when I first lived there. I never realised he was married to Thora Hird.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
I just don't understand why the British public is so vehemently against bypasses, when even the smallest of Dutch villages have them, making life more pleasant for everyone, villagers and drivers. They've also just got such an incredibly dense motorway network, there's just no need to drive long distance on small single carriageways through towns, and they're still building more! Jeez I could go on forever about how we need more motorways across the whole of the UK. Langholm itself says they can't build a bypass, it's too difficult or its too expensive. .
er - because they're too difficult and too expensive? And the Netherlands is the thinking person's vision of transport hell. Roads upon roads upon roads upon roads........
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
On the subject of obeying driving laws, 7 out of 10 bus lane rule flouters are London drivers.

http://yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/mai...vers-pay-millions-in-bus-lane-fines-1-6351250

And that often dodgy AA almost seems to think drivers are 'above the law'.

It really does look as though motorists are being used to raise revenue for cash-strapped councils."
no - seven out of ten fines imposed for flouting bus lanes are in London. Which is why so few drivers in London flout bus lanes.
 

Paspie

Senior Member
20 Zones (as well as traffic calming) appear to have been dreamt up predominantly out of political will, bolstered by misguided information collected using inadequate methods, rather than out of aspiring to improve road conditions. The 30mph limit has been well advertised and enforced, I highly doubt many road users will respect them given all the damage caused when responsibility for highways were passed on to local councils.
 

Paspie

Senior Member
It wasn't the point of the message in any case, so why the need to comment on that specific passage.
 

Linford

Guest
2878388 said:
Because 30mph limits are hardly enforced or observed at all

So what makes you think that people who ignore the 30's will all of a sudden take notice of the 20's ?

It isn't the ones already observing the limits who need slowing down is it !
 
If the road system was designed , it wouldn't be like this
It has evolved in a random way, and I agree as a motorist 20 mph sections don't seem to make much sense
I know some 20 sections that were later removed.
Keeping it 30 and having a speed camera is better than a 20 section
 
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