Full 20 mph city limit - a return to non drivers owning their town?

[qigong chimp]

So what sort of speed do you consider sociable? It really depends on the class of road.

A better q is what sort of personal transport we consider sociable.

We've been happy enough with the urban 30 limit for almost 80 years.

Oops!

 

[ComedyPilot]

I hope you do not consider it unfortunate that I wish to reply to your obvious criticism of my posting.

Does there not exist a direct correlation between vehicles travelling in excess of the speed limit, because of the increased prominence of the motor sports industry (including formula one). Therefore selling the sport by Bernie Ecclestone, seems to run counter to the notion of sport been the testing of man against man or in this case man and machine.

The second point refers to the fact that the journey between say London to Guildford remains the same distance irrespective of the mode of transport used to travel it.

Maybe I make little sense, maybe I should consider my statements before posting.

However I do believe that there is an element of criminality in a world where I would probably be demonised for the stealing a vehicle (as a criminal), whilst causing someone serious injury (or worse) whilst driving would be viewed less serious. Somehow?

Read up the word 'intent'

A thief intends to steal something, to thereby deprive the legal owners of the possession of said item.

A person crashing a car, believe it or not (and dare I say like it or not), doesn't intend to crash.

There are a lot of people in this forum and on other cycle-related twitter/facebook/forums that are sick to the back teeth of the catch all, "I didn't see them/didn't mean to do it" excuses carp that drivers have become accustomed to spouting to excuse their hitting other vehicles/people and damaging/injuring and KILLING them.

IMO (and this is only mine) I truly believe EVERY driver is responsible for every INCH their vehicle travels, and if found to be at fault for hitting another person/vehicle, then they should be banned as a minimum and re-tested.

If they kill or badly injure someone during the incident, then I don't think they deserve the permission to EVER drive again.

 

[Paspie]

A better q is what sort of personal transport we consider sociable.

I agree, but unfortunately we don't live in a society where cycling is practical for most people. We live in a society where mums have to look smart for the office, perhaps pop to Sainsburys, the gym, pick the kids up etc.

By the way, don't take me too seriously. As I tried to rant 'anti-20' in this thread I'm now trying my luck wearing the 'pro-20' stance on another forum where most speed cuts are despised. You can check out my progress here.

 

[oldstrath]

I agree, but unfortunately we don't live in a society where cycling is practical for most people. We live in a society where mums have to look smart for the office, perhaps pop to Sainsburys, the gym, pick the kids up etc.

I'm not a mum, but I do try to look presentable - it's called a shower, I don't need to go to the gym, no problem picking up shopping in the trailer on the way home. if we stopped believing that everything had to be done by car kids could walk or cycle.

 

[Paspie]

Okay, I'll admit I was trolling. In reality I'm undecided as to whether we should or should not cater for the car, instead of anything else. Whether we should cater for the culture or whether we should try to manipulate it.

Once you've seen the kind of road designs I like to work on that try to cater for everything, then maybe you'll change your opinion about me.

 

[oldstrath]

Okay, I'll admit I was trolling. In reality I'm undecided as to whether we should or should not cater for the car, instead of anything else. Whether we should cater for the culture or whether we should try to manipulate it.

Once you've seen the kind of road designs I like to work on that try to cater for everything, then maybe you'll change your opinion about me.

Easy question. Chuck the car away and stick with bikes and pedestrians. Anything else is just a stupid compromise intened to offer a sop to the killing machine fans.

 

[Linford]

Speeding is the single most common factor in road fatalities. Even that fact misses the point, there doesn't have to be a death for speeding to be anti social, frightening for vulnerable road users and children and old people.

Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[oldstrath]

Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First part might be wrong, but the bit about fear isn't - fast traffic scares people. The other advantage of universal 20 is it would take away one imagined advantage of cars.

 

[glenn forger]

Speeding is the main cause of road traffic collisions, deaths
and serious injury. Loss of control of the driving task, and thus potentially of the vehicle, arises when the demands of the
driving task exceed the available capability of the driver. As speed increases the task demand rises and the driver’s capability
is reduced.

http://www.etsc.eu/documents/PRAISE Thematic Report 8 Driving for Work Managing Speed.pdf

According to police, speeding was the main cause of death on the roads in 2012 - followed by inattention and use of drugs or alcohol.

http://www.u.tv/News/Concern-over-level-of-2013-road-deaths/ba61b2b5-62cd-453f-b140-392dcc352f5a

It's common sense, it's why 20 mph zones can reduce casualties by up to 40% and the only thing that's changed is that cars go slower, so accidents sharply fall.

 

[mickle]

Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go on then, tell us, what is the single most common factor in road fatalities?

 

[Paspie]

The trouble with a lot of these surveys is that they don't examine other factors that may be involved during road accidents. Sure, they can say that fatalities have reduced since the introduction of a lower speed limit, but advances in vehicle design and road engineering have been doing just that for decades and without a way to discount this they cannot prove that 20s reduce accidents. That's why you see speed limits being reduced where accidents are common, even though many of those accidents happened at less than the speed limit. More importantly though, lowering speed limits will not stop drivers who are already speeding.

Can't believe some of you are still missing the point that I haven't even got a car. :/

 

[Flying Dodo]

Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If a car doesn't move at all, then I can't think of any way it could possibly kill anyone. So cars at rest are fine. Unless of course someone from the Starship Enterprise tried to beam into the same volume of space as occupied by the car engine for example. But that's a fairly remote possibility.

Once a car starts moving, then it becomes a lethal weapon.

 

[Linford]

http://www.etsc.eu/documents/PRAISE Thematic Report 8 Driving for Work Managing Speed.pdf



http://www.u.tv/News/Concern-over-level-of-2013-road-deaths/ba61b2b5-62cd-453f-b140-392dcc352f5a

It's common sense, it's why 20 mph zones can reduce casualties by up to 40% and the only thing that's changed is that cars go slower, so accidents sharply fall.

Wrong !!!!!!!!!!

You cherry pick and paint with too broad a brush to be taken seriously

Your numbers include 'inappropriate' speed which can cover anything from walking pace to triple the posted limit

January 2011

Inappropriate speed contributes to around 14% of all injury collisions, 15% of crashes resulting in a serious injury and 24% of collisions which result in a death and are recorded by the police.1 This includes both 'excessive speed', when the speed limit is exceeded but also driving or riding within the speed limit when this is too fast for the conditions at the time (for example, in poor weather, poor visibility or high pedestrian activity).

In 2010, 241 people were killed in crashes involving someone exceeding the speed limit and a further 180 people died when someone was travelling too fast for the conditions.1

Drivers and riders who are travelling at inappropriate speeds are more likely to crash and their higher speed means that the crash will cause more severe injuries, to themselves and/or to other road users. Inappropriate speed also magnifies other driver errors, such as driving too close or driving when tired or distracted, multiplying the chances of these types of driving causing an accident.

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/driving/speed/inappropriate-speed.aspx

Your quotes just go to show that you only see the issue from a very narrow perspective.....

 

[Tin Pot]

Make driving mandatory for all journeys.

 

[Paspie]

Perhaps no one cares?

No one needs to care, but it ought to be acknowledged before anyone jumps to assumptions.

Just for the record, speeding has nothing to do with speed limits.