Hayes disc brakes compatible with Shimano rotors?
- Thread starter Destry
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Mr Pig
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- North Lanarkshire
I was told in a bike shop the other week that as long as the rotors are the correct size you can use any rotor with and disk brake. I don't know yet if that is 100% true, but that's what I was told. I'm going to check it myself before buying extra wheels for my bike.
Mr Pig
New Member
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- North Lanarkshire
I bet they say 'well it will work but to be sure of safety you'd be better with our ones....MooOOOoooooaaaagh!'
From the horse's mouth...
The reply from Hayes:
"I can't say for 100% certainty, but I suspect there will be an issue
with pad overlap on the rotor. The Shimano rotors typically have a
narrower brake track than our brakes, and this could cause an issue with
the pad either bridging over the top of the rotor or with it running too
far down the arms of the rotor, causing the pad to potentially get
shucked off of the backing plate. Obviously neither one of these is a
good situation find yourself in.
John Trusky | Technical & Warranty Support"
Well, there had to be something! Brake track width is a new one on me... I have asked him to tell me what width the Hayes brake track actually is so I can see if the XTR rotor really does have a narrower one...
Cheers,
Tom
The reply from Hayes:
"I can't say for 100% certainty, but I suspect there will be an issue
with pad overlap on the rotor. The Shimano rotors typically have a
narrower brake track than our brakes, and this could cause an issue with
the pad either bridging over the top of the rotor or with it running too
far down the arms of the rotor, causing the pad to potentially get
shucked off of the backing plate. Obviously neither one of these is a
good situation find yourself in.
John Trusky | Technical & Warranty Support"
Well, there had to be something! Brake track width is a new one on me... I have asked him to tell me what width the Hayes brake track actually is so I can see if the XTR rotor really does have a narrower one...
Cheers,
Tom
barq
Senior Member
- Location
- Birmingham, UK
That's actually a surprisingly detailed reply. Like Mr Pig I assumed you'd get the standard "For safety reasons..." response.
Mr Pig
New Member
- Location
- North Lanarkshire
barq said:
And I think it's also bollocks!
My new bike has Shimano brakes and the area swept by the pads is deeper than the 'track' around the outside. The track itself is not the same depth all the way around, the section between each arm tapers down to about 11mm at the leading edge. Even at the deepest part, which is about 15mm, it is still less than the area the pads cover, so the pads do run on the top edges of the arms.
And yes, the pads and disks are Shimano too.
Steve Austin
The Marmalade Kid
- Location
- Mlehworld
Mr Pig said:
but you are the bloke who thought that SRAM powerlinks should be abandoned as they don't work for you B)
and the same bloke who got concerned by lawyer links on forks four years after the fact.
Of course i would follow every word you said Mr Pig, because you are such a fount of knowledge
---
Mr Trusky is right. Each and every disc brake manufacturer have different tolerances. so an Avid, and shimano 160 disc may have slightly different variations within their discs. They 'may' work, they 'may' not. Its also about how well it will work, do you want it to work as well as the manufacturer intended? if you do, then you need to use what they suggest, ie their pads, their brakes, their discs.
i think they will work. BUT they will not work as well as they re supposed to
Mr Pig
New Member
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- North Lanarkshire
Steve Austin said:
I didn't say that, and you should stop misquoting me and trying to rubbish everything I say.
A mechanic in a bike shop told me that you could use any disk of the correct size, I didn't make it up, and I also said that I would check that myself before buying anything.
If the pad overlapping the arms was such a disaster why did Shimano design their brakes that way? What Hayes are saying is a concern Shimano has done by design. So if Hayes are right my Shimano brakes may come apart!
In reply to a supplementary question, the trusty Mr Trusky has informed me that the brake track on a Hayes V6 rotor is "15.6 mm on average".
I'm not sure the average is the most useful measurement, given the nature of the potential problem he described, but still...
Anyone have one of the new XTR rotors and care to lay a ruler across the brake track?
Thanks!
Tom
I'm not sure the average is the most useful measurement, given the nature of the potential problem he described, but still...
Anyone have one of the new XTR rotors and care to lay a ruler across the brake track?
Thanks!
Tom
Mr Pig
New Member
- Location
- North Lanarkshire
The track on my Shimano rotors are about 15, maybe slightly over, at their widest part. The area swept by the pad is a little bigger, they cover maybe one or two mm of the tops of the arms. They are not XTR ones but my bet would be that XTR ones would have bigger tracks if they were different at all.
You were only ever going to get one response from the manufacturer, you'd get the same one from any of them. If you asked a car manufacturer if it was ok to use after-market brake pads in their cars you get the same answer from them too. 'Well, it might work but we can't guarantee it and the only way to be sure the brakes are going to work as we designed is by using our pads'.
They have to say that. Firstly, they don't know which brand of cheapo pad you might stick in there, so genuinely can't say how it will work, and need to cover themselves legally. Secondly, it's their job to sell product. They don't want you to buy a cheaper product from another manufacturer, they want you to buy their product. It's obvious but people forget. Never take at face value the opinion of someone who has a material interest in the decision you make.
I used EBC Green Stuff brake pads in my car and they were better than the Nissan pads I have now. I'll be buying them again next time. They work better than Nissan pads, despite what Nissan might say.
As I said in my first post though, I wouldn't buy them without checking more. I've phoned a couple of good bike shops on your behalf. One said that it's best to stick to the same manufacturer, if for no other reason, because that way you'll have some sort of comeback should you experience any problems.
I've spoken to two separate people at another other shop who said there is no problem. One guy has run different disks and brakes many times without issue and says that the rotor sizes are pretty much standard. He says that there are slight differences in the thickness's of rotors but the brakes are an open system and self-adjusting so it's not a problem. He says that most rotors are of a similar thickness anyway. There are exceptions, like older rotors that are very thick and Avid ones that seem to be thinner than average, but generally they all fall comfortably within the spec of the brakes. He also pointed out that there are after-market companies who make pads and rotors for bike disk brakes, I'm sure EBC are one?
Why not speak to a couple of shops yourself and if you're encouraged by their response you could buy oner disk to try out?
You were only ever going to get one response from the manufacturer, you'd get the same one from any of them. If you asked a car manufacturer if it was ok to use after-market brake pads in their cars you get the same answer from them too. 'Well, it might work but we can't guarantee it and the only way to be sure the brakes are going to work as we designed is by using our pads'.
They have to say that. Firstly, they don't know which brand of cheapo pad you might stick in there, so genuinely can't say how it will work, and need to cover themselves legally. Secondly, it's their job to sell product. They don't want you to buy a cheaper product from another manufacturer, they want you to buy their product. It's obvious but people forget. Never take at face value the opinion of someone who has a material interest in the decision you make.
I used EBC Green Stuff brake pads in my car and they were better than the Nissan pads I have now. I'll be buying them again next time. They work better than Nissan pads, despite what Nissan might say.
As I said in my first post though, I wouldn't buy them without checking more. I've phoned a couple of good bike shops on your behalf. One said that it's best to stick to the same manufacturer, if for no other reason, because that way you'll have some sort of comeback should you experience any problems.
I've spoken to two separate people at another other shop who said there is no problem. One guy has run different disks and brakes many times without issue and says that the rotor sizes are pretty much standard. He says that there are slight differences in the thickness's of rotors but the brakes are an open system and self-adjusting so it's not a problem. He says that most rotors are of a similar thickness anyway. There are exceptions, like older rotors that are very thick and Avid ones that seem to be thinner than average, but generally they all fall comfortably within the spec of the brakes. He also pointed out that there are after-market companies who make pads and rotors for bike disk brakes, I'm sure EBC are one?
Why not speak to a couple of shops yourself and if you're encouraged by their response you could buy oner disk to try out?
Mr Pig
New Member
- Location
- North Lanarkshire
You do have to be careful about voiding the warranty on your stuff:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7526628.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7526628.stm
So that's a difference in brake track of 0.6 mm. Hmmm. The XTR ones might be narrower, in fact, as they are forever machining bits away to save weight.
I think it is right to be sceptical of the manufacturer's response to such questions, but I think you can also look at the quality of the reply and modify your scepticism accordingly. In this case, I got more than a formulaic brush-off, and the explanation is at least plausible. Naturally manufacturers do all their testing with their own components, so another reasonable answer to my original question would have been... I haven't the foggiest, mate!
I ran Avid BB7s on XTR rotors for a while and the combination worked fine... It's a question of risk assessment. The whole system might fail anyway, but how much worse does mixing components make it? No worse at all, is the view of my local LBSs... I'll probably try gingerly for a while, inspect, then forget all about it!
Cheers,
Tom
I think it is right to be sceptical of the manufacturer's response to such questions, but I think you can also look at the quality of the reply and modify your scepticism accordingly. In this case, I got more than a formulaic brush-off, and the explanation is at least plausible. Naturally manufacturers do all their testing with their own components, so another reasonable answer to my original question would have been... I haven't the foggiest, mate!
I ran Avid BB7s on XTR rotors for a while and the combination worked fine... It's a question of risk assessment. The whole system might fail anyway, but how much worse does mixing components make it? No worse at all, is the view of my local LBSs... I'll probably try gingerly for a while, inspect, then forget all about it!
Cheers,
Tom
Mr Pig
New Member
- Location
- North Lanarkshire
Destry said:
Not quite. You said the 'average' track width on the Hayes was 15.6mm. The 'maximum' track with on the Shimano is approximately 15.
Do you want to use Shimano disks because they are cheaper? how much do the Hayes ones cost and what size do you need?
Mr Pig
New Member
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- North Lanarkshire
I happened to see this today. Here's a couple of quotes from another forum which go to illustrate the diverse opinions on the subject:
"You should never mix rotors with calipers. In some cases you may get away with it but alot of the time all your doing is damage. For instance. Hayes pads will have a sandpaper effect on shimano rotors. In no time the rotor will be burnt(scored) and useless. You will also wear pads out too. In the case of Avids, An Avid rotor is thicker than a Shimano one, So its not aligning your Avid caliper to a center-loc rotor that will be tough, that should be easy, its getting the brake to work properly that will be sketchy. On my BSX bike I run Saint Hubs witch require Center-loc rotors. In my case I run Shimano brakes so it makes sence. I think most mechanics will agree its a bomb proof system! It works well and is super simple. Tool wise, all it requires is a cassett tool. The Saint sized rotor mount is the only specific sized tool. I know people argure that its "another stantard" on the push to make money but bottom line is if it was crap companies like DT-Swiss and Mavic wouldnt be using the patent on their hubs."
And the reply:
"Oh, I'm not worried about that. I've happily mixed rotors and calipers from all kinds of brands. Some combinations require turning down the rotor, some provide more or less braking power, but I've never had problems. My current combo is cheap Shimano Deore mechanical calipers with 1st gen Magura Julie rotors and off-the-shelf pad replacements from BBB (the original Shimano pads work too). They stop my loaded tourer on a dime and the rotors are thicker so they don't heat up as fast as the original Shimanos, which is great on long descents. Being cheap, the calipers are of the fixed pad variety, but they certainly manage to bend the rotors against the inner pad without problem."
"You should never mix rotors with calipers. In some cases you may get away with it but alot of the time all your doing is damage. For instance. Hayes pads will have a sandpaper effect on shimano rotors. In no time the rotor will be burnt(scored) and useless. You will also wear pads out too. In the case of Avids, An Avid rotor is thicker than a Shimano one, So its not aligning your Avid caliper to a center-loc rotor that will be tough, that should be easy, its getting the brake to work properly that will be sketchy. On my BSX bike I run Saint Hubs witch require Center-loc rotors. In my case I run Shimano brakes so it makes sence. I think most mechanics will agree its a bomb proof system! It works well and is super simple. Tool wise, all it requires is a cassett tool. The Saint sized rotor mount is the only specific sized tool. I know people argure that its "another stantard" on the push to make money but bottom line is if it was crap companies like DT-Swiss and Mavic wouldnt be using the patent on their hubs."
And the reply:
"Oh, I'm not worried about that. I've happily mixed rotors and calipers from all kinds of brands. Some combinations require turning down the rotor, some provide more or less braking power, but I've never had problems. My current combo is cheap Shimano Deore mechanical calipers with 1st gen Magura Julie rotors and off-the-shelf pad replacements from BBB (the original Shimano pads work too). They stop my loaded tourer on a dime and the rotors are thicker so they don't heat up as fast as the original Shimanos, which is great on long descents. Being cheap, the calipers are of the fixed pad variety, but they certainly manage to bend the rotors against the inner pad without problem."
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