Heart training zones

[50000tears]

Sorry, I'm going to disagree with this. Unless the TTs are hilly, I wouldn't incorporate hill work or even sprint work into a schedule. 10s and 25s are all about riding at sustainable threshold for the duration, probably slightly higher than threshold for a 10. I would drop the distances and increase the intensity. Sets of short repeated efforts like 1min, 5min and maybe 20min intervals at around 85-90% MHR, once or twice a week, together with a couple of LSD/recovery rides is what I'd do.

Is this not a little contradictory? I agree that short intense efforts are excellent TT training for increasing lactate threshold and such like but hill work can be an excellent way to do this. Repeated efforts up 3-5 min climb or a long sustained climb can both be easily used to generate the same training result.

 

[Citius]

Hill work usually puts you in a different position, a different speed, a different gear and a different cadence to riding on the flat. If the aim is flat 10s and 25s, I would focus on creating and maintaining power in the position you will be riding in. Anything else would be less specific and therefore (likely) less effective.

 

[50000tears]

I understand what you are saying but with somebody with still a long way to go with fitness the intensity, and the corresponding increases in fitness, is more important than being 100% focused on just race specific training. Not saying you are wrong as either would work. Also don't see why you would be in a different cadence as even on hills this is a product of gear selection. Can you also explain the relevance of different gear/speed when we are training the cardiovascular system?

 

[Citius]

I understand what you are saying but with somebody with still a long way to go with fitness the intensity, and the corresponding increases in fitness, is more important than being 100% focused on just race specific training.

Agreed, at low levels of fitness then almost any kind of riding will help. But my understanding was the focus was on improving 10 & 25 times for someone who is already riding 10s and 25s.

Also don't see why you would be in a different cadence as even on hills this is a product of gear selection. Can you also explain the relevance of different gear/speed when we are training the cardiovascular system?

I'm just applying the law of specificity, really. It's difficult to explain, but pushing 250w up a hill is never going to feel the same as pushing 250w in an aero position on a TT bike. If you look at some of the power data from the TdF - some of the riders who were averaging close to 400w in the alps (Froome's average was 414w apparently), were generally only managing around 300w in the TTs. 400w in the alps is probably only going to give you 12-15mph. 400w on the flat is probably going to give you in excess of 30-35mph, now those figures are guesses, but you see how the specifics can make a difference.

If you are racing on the flat, then the best training for that is going to be learning to ride fast on the flat. Of course you can do other stuff, but that's certainly where the focus should be, IMO...

 

[50000tears]

Thanks Citius nice explanation. Certainly if Cuchilo is currently in a TT season with events to come then you are right that specific training does have the edge. As part of an overall training plan however I still do think that hill work offers a really really good "bang for you buck" for a wide variety of cycle events including TTs. The only real downside in doing hill work is the risk of doing too much and needing longer to recover before your next hard session.

 

[Citius]

Yep, unless you live in the fens, then hills are pretty much inevitable wherever you are. But there are some big, heavy testers out there that produce big power on the flat and reguarly place top 5/10 in flat 10s, 25s or 50s. They'd be lucky to get into the top 50 on most HCs though.

 

[50000tears]

Yep, unless you live in the fens, then hills are pretty much inevitable wherever you are. But there are some big, heavy testers out there that produce big power on the flat and reguarly place top 5/10 in flat 10s, 25s or 50s. They'd be lucky to get into the top 50 on most HCs though.

That is not what we are talking about though. We are not asking the OP to become a competitive hill climber as well as a strong TTer. All we are discussing is that hill training can produce good results in improving power which of course can then be utilised in all forms of cycling. The truth is that not many who excel at TTs will also excel at hill climbing as the light body weight of a pure climber is not conducive to that of a good TTer.

When Bradley Wiggins gave up stage racing last year to focus on the world TT he had to put on another stone to get back to his fastest TT weight. At a more personal level one of my friends that I ride with is 6ft 3 and 13st+. He can set a ferocious pace on the flat that I can barely hang with even when on his wheel, he would certainly make a decent TTer over time. But as you said on the climbs, I often have to soft pedal, or stop and wait for him at the top.

I can link you to someone who does compete at a high level at both if you prefer though.

 

[Tin Pot]

Hill work usually puts you in a different position, a different speed, a different gear and a different cadence to riding on the flat. If the aim is flat 10s and 25s, I would focus on creating and maintaining power in the position you will be riding in. Anything else would be less specific and therefore (likely) less effective.

I'd agree with your point on position, as 50000tears said, hills make for good interval training but not tt specific. In my experience, a good training plan is one you'll follow. And for me that means trading off the ideal plan against things I enjoy, to get the perfect plan I'm going to do and enjoy. So I think you're right, but with hills everywhere, and it being fun, do hill work

That said....

@Cuchilo
If you can find terrain similar to the intended tt course, get into a tuck for ten minutes race pace (Z4 touching into Z5) then two and a half in recovery (Z1/Z2) and repeat for a session - note that HR will lag a bit. But inbetween those interval sessions you want easy riding in Z2.

Joe Friel has some good training material on this.

I need to look into this kind of training myself for next year, so would be good to hear your practice and progress updates.

 

[Joshua Plumtree]

Hill work usually puts you in a different position, a different speed, a different gear and a different cadence to riding on the flat. If the aim is flat 10s and 25s, I would focus on creating and maintaining power in the position you will be riding in. Anything else would be less specific and therefore (likely) less effective.

As I see it, being fast over 10/25 miles requires you to push the biggest gear you can in the highest cadence possible whilst remaining in an aero tuck. Almost impossible to do this whilst hill climbing and the type of adaptions this might encourage are not necesarily those you require for TTing.
That's not to say that regular hill climbing sessions don't bring other benefits. Particular useful for some kinds of intervals and Vo2 stuff IMO.

 

[Citius]

That is not what we are talking about though. We are not asking the OP to become a competitive hill climber as well as a strong TTer. All we are discussing is that hill training can produce good results in improving power which of course can then be utilised in all forms of cycling. The truth is that not many who excel at TTs will also excel at hill climbing as the light body weight of a pure climber is not conducive to that of a good TTer.

I know the OP is only targeting TTs, which is why I'm suggesting focusing on efforts which produce the best results for TTing, not climbing. Having said that, there are plenty of riders out there who excel at both, at both pro and amateur level. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but that doesn't mean the training shouldn't be specific.

 

[Cuchilo]

From what i have seen locally the TT season seems to end with hill climbing TT's . I've not noticed hill climbs during the season and i guess there's good reason for that .

 

[screenman]

Froomie is quite quick in a time trial for somebody who goes up hill well.

 

[Citius]

Froomie is quite quick in a time trial for somebody who goes up hill well.

So was Wiggins, so was Lemond, so was Indurain, so was Lance (yes, I know), so were lots of others. As said, the two are not in any way mutually exclusive.

 

[Cuchilo]

Back on the same 25 mile course in the morning and aiming for under the hour

 

[Cuchilo]

Stupid bike !