How important is honesty in your life?

[swansonj]

In personal life, absolutely vital. That's assuming it's not a 'white lie'....

Isn't that rather begging one of the key questions here?

In personal life,
......

Does that suggest different standards might apply when dealing with third parties? If so, does that imply that honesty is more about the effect on the recipient rather than something about our own character?

(Sorry, I'm really not picking on you, it's just that your post was a convenient peg to hang some thoughts on that I'd been mulling over)

 

[Tin Pot]

And how do people who do not share your beliefs get to apprehend that 'reality' (assuming, as you do, that such a thing is desirable)?

Isn’t it obvious that lies make people believe things that are not true? If you believe things that are not true, you are not experiencing reality. You are experience a version modified by the falsehoods.

 

[Andrew_P]

It wasn't me.

 

[Electric_Andy]

Justifiable dishonesty. We all do it. The trick is to not let it affect the lives/happiness of other people who don't deserve it

 

[theclaud]

[QUOTE 5172476, member: 43827"]Surely the only way this question can be answered "honestly" is by identifying specific circumstances and rationalising what you would do, or have done, or want done to you in similar situations in the past. The possibilities for deciding when to be honest (in terms of telling truths or untruths) are so vast as to be meaningless in one overall answer.

Anything else is usually just hypothetical self-aggrandising or self-deceiving pub chat.[/QUOTE]
I think it's an interesting question, though not a simple one, and even if it could only be answered within the constraints you suggest, it would still be interesting.

 

[theclaud]

I believe I am fairly honest, only sometimes I dissimulate. I still have not told all my friends I voted Brexit. I have had to listen to them impugn, by association, my intelligence and tolerance for racial difference.

That's an interesting post. I have a colleague who voted Leave, who I believe to be a person of honesty and integrity, whose motivation for voting leave I would be very hesitant to judge as racist, and who is certainly not unintelligent. It has happened more than once that I have felt that she is being, as you put it, impugned by association in a conversation between others about Brexit. At these times she has mostly said nothing. I suspect that the effect of situations like this is to reinforce many Leave voters' not unreasonable belief that there is a class of people with more power and influence than they have, which is (intentionally or otherwise) indifferent to their views, interests and opinions, and perhaps even to their existence.

 

[theclaud]

Isn’t it obvious that lies make people believe things that are not true? If you believe things that are not true, you are not experiencing reality. You are experience a version modified by the falsehoods.

It may be common sense, but no - it isn't obvious. Lies don't make people believe things - they offer a narrative which people might choose, consciously or otherwise, to believe in. And by 'believe in', I don't necessarily mean credit (rationally) as factually accurate - I mean accept as serving a greater truth or value.

 

[Andrew_P]

Much more interesting is that other than expert level fully trained liars the brain really hates lying, loads of outward signs everyone has them too and some are built in. Some they should just give up its so pronounced.

Take lie detectors as a for instance its really interesting how deeply it goes against the grain of the human psyche. Eye movement is fascinating. A lot of it was in 90's sales & negotiation courses I was sent on which I hated but once you start watching its brilliant, not infallible but fairly accurate. Word phrasing to get the right answer, or yes no etc. Sure its moved on since then but I still come across people trying to flog me stuff using that stuff.

Its a human thing to do though which given how the brain seems to dislike it I would assume its the emotional side and the sub conscious is the part resisting it. That me not a course nor Google. Then the motivation, surely the most part of everyday untruths is self preservation and or preserving others feeling.

The internet makes all of this much more difficult for someone like me I am as gullible as feck without the reassurance of body language.

 

[PK99]

Much more interesting is that other than expert level fully trained liars the brain really hates lying, loads of outward signs everyone has them too and some are built in. Some they should just give up its so pronounced.

.

Someone I knew obliquely once told me a quite unnecessary and transparent lie, it was obvious that something was "off" as her voice went up an octave or two!

Sometime later her husband and I became part of the same cycling/drinking group and we became friends as couples. But the lie - which she seemed to have forgotten, stuck in my memory - as did her squeaky "lie-tell". I always knew when to be on guard about what she was saying!​

 

[stephec]

If we're being honest I reckon most people have done this.

 

[Andrew_P]

Someone I knew obliquely once told me a quite unnecessary and transparent lie, it was obvious that something was "off" as her voice went up an octave or two!

Sometime later her husband and I became part of the same cycling/drinking group and we became friends as couples. But the lie - which she seemed to have forgotten, stuck in my memory - as did her squeaky "lie-tell". I always knew when to be on guard about what she was saying!​

Not always lying but I have seen people visibly twitch or kind of shudder or the flick of the shoulder sometimes just with exaggeration.

 

[jefmcg]

Sometimes honesty is a scoundrels defence.
"The reason you have not friends is you are fat and stupid"
"That's cruel!"
"I'm just being honest"

 

[srw]

So what about our dealings with organisations and companies? Are these places fair game for some BS because we may feel that they tend to be economical with the truth.

In my view - No. For several reasons.

First - the psychological argument - what we may "feel" is often not the case. People (and organisations and companies are groups of people) find lying difficult.
Second - the ethical argument - even if the people in a big organisation are lying to me, I want to feel better than them, so I'm going to be honest.
Third - the utilitarian argument - lying to a big organisation is often found out (because lying is difficult and because they often have systems to detect lying), so it's a mug's game.
Fourth - the political argument - lying to a big organisation corrodes trust between people generally. My lying to you makes you less likely to trust her in the future. Trust between people is a societal good which should be encouraged.

I'm not going to wade into what is truth just at the moment - someone tried that and got crucified. Literally.

 

[jefmcg]

Only if that were true.... which it rarely (if ever) is.

But there are hard truths about everyone. The people who know them can weaponise them if the chose to, and wrap it in the disclaimer "I have to be honest".

Which is doubly ironic, because they are being dishonest with the person they are attacking, by pretending their motive is only "honesty", but also with themselves.

(My brother does this. Any vulnerabilities I share with him will be thrown back at me when he is angry. Bless him, sometimes he forgets I told him, and acts as if it is an insight he worked out himself. And yes, I did eventually stop sharing stuff with him.)

 

[MontyVeda]

Whilst i consider myself to be pretty honest... i thoroughly enjoy telling preposterous lies at work, such as spending my week off at a Christian retreat, not gambling because Jesus doesn't like it, telling youngsters who have the cheek to ask that I'm 73 and only have a few years to go before retirement ...but what really surprises me is, some of them believe me