I am confused about range on electric bikes and is it honest?

[simon.r]

Specialized Turbo Vado here, UK legal, 2019 model with the 500wH battery.

Real world range, using power as appropriate on an undulating route is about 50 miles.

 

[lyn1]

We have 2 Canyon road bikes. The power has 3 settings, effectively low, medium, high. Riding constantly on low and at under 15 mph (other than downhill) we get 50 ish miles, which is what is advertised.

 

[cougie uk]

If you look up Roner Llewellyn's Fully Charged YouTube channel he converted his bike using Swytch a few weeks ago.

 

[Pale Rider]

Specialized Turbo Vado here, UK legal, 2019 model with the 500wH battery.

Real world range, using power as appropriate on an undulating route is about 50 miles.

We have 2 Canyon road bikes. The power has 3 settings, effectively low, medium, high. Riding constantly on low and at under 15 mph (other than downhill) we get 50 ish miles, which is what is advertised.

This is what it boils down to, a 500wh battery on a full assist legal bike on a good day will get you 50 miles.

It matters not what bike you have, what type of motor you have, or what you paid for it.

My ludicrously expensive Riese and Muller with its Bosch crank drive will give about the same range as a hub drive Halford's cheapie.

More accurately, they will consume roughly the same amount of power.

The batteries on my bike are bigger than those on the Halfords bikes, but that's the only reason my bike goes further.

The light assist motors, such as the Fazua and Ebikemotion, as fitted on some roadie style bikes, will go further than 50 miles, but then so will the full assist bikes, such as the Bosch, when the wick is turned right down.

 

[RichardB]

Wisper 905 Classic. When I was commuting on it, I was using full assist all the time. I tend to use the assist to get speed up and then pedal like fury to keep at or above 15 mph. Also of course the helping hand going up hills (my commute was very hilly). Wisper quoted a range of 50-60 miles, from memory. Most days I covered 25-30 miles and had 3/5 or 4/5 lights left on the battery indicator, so I think the quoted range was fairly honest.

The Wisper has a twist throttle that will power the bike without pedalling, but it's fairly slow and I wouldn't try to cover any distance on it. I've only used it once on the road, when the chain slipped off and I needed to get out of the way of a tractor PDQ. I believe 2014 (the year of my bike) was the last year that these throttles were legal, but I could be wrong.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Wisper 905 Classic. When I was commuting on it, I was using full assist all the time. I tend to use the assist to get speed up and then pedal like fury to keep at or above 15 mph. Also of course the helping hand going up hills (my commute was very hilly). Wisper quoted a range of 50-60 miles, from memory. Most days I covered 25-30 miles and had 3/5 or 4/5 lights left on the battery indicator, so I think the quoted range was fairly honest.

The Wisper has a twist throttle that will power the bike without pedalling, but it's fairly slow and I wouldn't try to cover any distance on it. I've only used it once on the road, when the chain slipped off and I needed to get out of the way of a tractor PDQ. I believe 2014 (the year of my bike) was the last year that these throttles were legal, but I could be wrong.

The switch over date for the regs was 2016
before that you could legally have a throttle (my Powacycle Salisbury had one) but the power was limited to 200W rather than the current (sorry) 250W
Ebikes manufactured before then can still be used because they get 'grandfather rights' - but they must stick to all the old regs - not just have an old ebike and put a 250W motor in it

As with all ebike regs - I do not think anyone has ever tried to properly test this in court - so $deity knows what would happen if you tried it - although how the cops would find out is uncertain - as is why they would bother

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

I have re-read my previous reply on here and I thought there was a point worth adding

I have had 2 hub drive ebikes - one is still my wife's - and both were/are at the lower end of the market. My own ebike has a Bosch centre drive. I find that on the cheapo hub drive the 'torque sensor' is either just a motion detector - or is not very sensitive. This has the effect that you can fool the system in kicking the motor up to full power by pedalling very gently with very little effort at all - hence the bike accelerates up and maintains a reasonable speed using pretty much only battery power.

However, on my Bosch system you can;t really fool it as easily - in other words it actually looks at the pressure you are putting on the pedals and the motor responds to that. So, if you ease off the effort then the motor does the same and you slow down - especially if you have the assistance level set low.

This results in the range for the Bosch system looking good compared to the cheap hub drive - but it gets this extra range my making me do more work and the motor less work.

I don;t know how more expensive hub drive systems work so they may be better - but that is how it has been on the hub drive systems I have seen.

 

[Drago]

Everything a manufacturer or retail claims is bunkum, from the MPG your car will achieve through to the sex appeal that Lynx body spray will bestow. Ebikes are no different, although they do smell nicer than Lynx.

 

[RichardB]

The switch over date for the regs was 2016
before that you could legally have a throttle (my Powacycle Salisbury had one) but the power was limited to 200W rather than the current (sorry) 250W
Ebikes manufactured before then can still be used because they get 'grandfather rights' - but they must stick to all the old regs - not just have an old ebike and put a 250W motor in it

As with all ebike regs - I do not think anyone has ever tried to properly test this in court - so $deity knows what would happen if you tried it - although how the cops would find out is uncertain - as is why they would bother

My Wisper is 2014 manufacture and has a 250W motor. However, the power available to the twistgrip is nothing like as much (almost akin to the 'walking' mode my wife's Raleigh Motus had). Perhaps that is what is restricted.

As anyone who owns and rides an ebike probably knows more about them and the relevant regs than the average copper, I take your point about getting caught. There's a guy on Youtube who has put a (I think) 1300W motor in a mountain bike, which will do 30+ mph without pedalling. I suspect he will get caught one day, but a normal-looking, sensibly-ridden bike will be safe.

I have re-read my previous reply on here and I thought there was a point worth adding

I have had 2 hub drive ebikes - one is still my wife's - and both were/are at the lower end of the market. My own ebike has a Bosch centre drive. I find that on the cheapo hub drive the 'torque sensor' is either just a motion detector - or is not very sensitive. This has the effect that you can fool the system in kicking the motor up to full power by pedalling very gently with very little effort at all - hence the bike accelerates up and maintains a reasonable speed using pretty much only battery power.

However, on my Bosch system you can;t really fool it as easily - in other words it actually looks at the pressure you are putting on the pedals and the motor responds to that. So, if you ease off the effort then the motor does the same and you slow down - especially if you have the assistance level set low.

This results in the range for the Bosch system looking good compared to the cheap hub drive - but it gets this extra range my making me do more work and the motor less work.

I don;t know how more expensive hub drive systems work so they may be better - but that is how it has been on the hub drive systems I have seen.

I can compare the two. My Wisper has a 'motion sensor' hub drive and my wife's Motus had a torque sensor crank drive. The crank drive felt more natural, but I am used to the little surge of power you get with a hub drive and I quite like it. I am sure that crank drives are superior in many ways, but a significant disadvantage is that all the effort of the motor goes through the transmission. Clumsy or power-on gear changes will wear the transmission very rapidly. The hub motor is independent of the gears, so the wear on the sprockets and derailleur is no more than on a conventional bike. However, the hub motor doesn't benefit from the low gearing on a steep hill either, and can get close to stalling speed if the hill is really sharp. With a crank drive, the motor can spin faster and closer to its optimum rpm. Again, just my experience.

One other thing: my Wisper is a rear hub drive, but many hub drive bikes have the motor in the front wheel. That's effectively a two-wheel drive bike and should theoretically be much more sure-footed in the wet and snow. Possibly.

 

[beastie]

Hi Drago, thank you. What you say makes sense and I kind of understood most of that from reading various articles on e-bikes. However, as I explained I could not understand the huge disparity in the range quoted by ebike companies on their website. My best guess is that Swytch being a British company (although selling globally) is taking the cautious or realistic approach to their range estimates and that most companies are exaggerating things, often doubling the average, which hardly anyone is going to achieve. That is my best guess. I have sent an email to VanMoof asking them for an explanation. I haven't heard back yet. I basically asked them as a UK resident could I buy the 504 Wh ebike, and if not and it had to be limited to 250 Wh, then what would the estimated range of my 250 Wh Vanmoof ebike be? I hope they reply, it would be interesting to hear what they say.

I have the 250W Swytch kit on my gravel bike ATM. I'm gonna pop a more detailed review later.
1. It works, and so far after 1 month no worries. 9/10
2. It was very easy to fit, < 1H including putting on a tyre, disc rotor, fitting the kit and fettling. 9/10
3. The battery range is IMO a generous estimate, but it is not massively off. 6/10
4. It looks a bit old fashioned with the bar mounted battery. 7/10
5. It cost £420ish, after duty and exchange rate. Very good value at this price. 9/10
6. It took an AGE to arrive, partly due to Covid, but it was 5 months late and then the pedal sensor was another 1month. 3/10
7. All my emails were answered promptly enough 7/10
I probably will buy a dedicated e-bike after this kit dies, but as a low cost entry to ebiking (and putting it on any bike) it's pretty good.

 

[gzoom]

This is what it boils down to, a 500wh battery on a full assist legal bike on a good day will get you 50 miles.........

..........The light assist motors, such as the Fazua and Ebikemotion, as fitted on some roadie style bikes, will go further than 50 miles, but then so will the full assist bikes, such as the Bosch, when the wick is turned right down.

Surely its all dependent on the rider and effort you put in?

If I use the full assistance on the Fazua and stay below 15mph I recon I could drain the battery is less than 30 miles. But having 300watts on tap for an effort of 70watts (so near 400watts combined) equates to doing about as much exercise as sitting on the sofa having a beer!!

If I ride the Fazua as hard as I would my road bike am seeing a range of 100 miles, with average speeds of 17.5-18mph over rolling terrain, so barely slower than my road bike but with added 'comfort' features like mudguards, more relaxed geometry, fat tyres and disc brakes.

50 miles from 500wh battery seems vert low though. Maybe its because a 500wh battery eBike is so much heavier to ride without any motor input its simply too hard work for the rider?

My Fazua eBike at 16kg already feels very heavy to ride unassisted especially on inclines, a 20kg+ eBike must feel awful to handle without motor assistance?

 

[simon.r]

I’m sure there’s some resistance from the motor over 15.5mph on my Specialized. Anything over that speed on the flat is really quite hard work, even allowing for the 25kg weight of the bike.

 

[Pale Rider]

If I ride the Fazua as hard as I would my road bike am seeing a range of 100 miles, with average speeds of 17.5-18mph over rolling terrain,

I don't doubt it, but with that average your average battery use is zero, so you will get a long range.

50 miles from 500wh battery seems vert low though.

If anything, it's slightly optimistic.

Have a play with the Bosch range assistant, which gives a realistic estimate for any road legal 'full assist' ebike.

Most of the roadie ebikes have much weaker motors, so with a light, fit rider they could give longer range.

At t'other end of the scale, there's a GCN emtb video of a ride in adverse conditions on the South Downs Way in which they flattened a 500wh battery in about 20 miles.

https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/

 

[RichardB]

I’m sure there’s some resistance from the motor over 15.5mph on my Specialized. Anything over that speed on the flat is really quite hard work, even allowing for the 25kg weight of the bike.

Strange, that. Once I get the Wisper over 16 mph it absolutely flies. I find it as easy to keep up 16-17 mph on the flat as I do on any other bike. It doesn't feel like there is any resistance at all - apart from the massive weight, it rides like a decent bike.

 

[simon.r]

Strange, that. Once I get the Wisper over 16 mph it absolutely flies. I find it as easy to keep up 16-17 mph on the flat as I do on any other bike. It doesn't feel like there is any resistance at all - apart from the massive weight, it rides like a decent bike.

I vaguely recall reading something about some ebikes having motors that ‘disconnect’ at speeds over 15.5mph, which suggests that some don’t. Not an expert, so can’t add anything else I’m afraid.