If you could cycle exclusively on cycle tracks, would you?

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Had a similar incident with a dogless nutter on the Beryl Burton cyclepath who informed me I should not be cycling:wacko: Aside from the blue cycleway signs at either end it would be the first footpath will standard highway warning signs along it.

Honestly this sort of person really is a crackpot. Their brain cannot hold the concept of different users, or something.

They have always been around; 20 - 30 years ago I often used to take a couple of neighbouring teenage lads and their mountain bikes out with me when I took my horse out in the horsebox for all day rides; there was plenty of room for the lads and their bikes, their parents used to give me a fiver or a tenner as contribution towards my fuel and one of them would often come out to meet us where I'd arranged to park up, with hot drinks, sandwiches etc.

The boys would follow the same route as me, all drawn up on maps and with a written 'talk through' - I used to help organise pleasure rides in aid of various charities so these were often 'trial routes'.

Oh, the number of times the lads came across nutters in the hiking fraternity, telling them in no uncertain terms that they were NOT allowed on the BOAT, the bridleway or the RUPP and even surrounding them to prevent their passage through!
Fortunately my horse at that time was large and rather intimidating-looking, although a total teddy-bear in character, and I could just say from 'on high' , 'Move, I'm coming through' and bunches of hikers would part as if I were Moses and they were the Red Sea, and the two lads would follow close on my horse's heels like the Israelites - then we'd have a good laugh together about it. What else can you do?
Once I was actually chatting to a Peak District National Park Ranger (about the planned route for an upcoming ride) when we rounded a corner and once again the boys were held up by a bunch of ignorant walkers. The ranger - who was on a mountain bike himself - sighed in exasperation as he said to the walkers 'what's the matter now?' and tried (yet again, it seemed) to explain that blue signs indicate a public bridleway WHICH ALSO PERMITS CYCLISTS and yellow signs indicate a public footpath which doesn't, and to look at the signs right here, yes that's right, a blue arrow saying bridleway to Edale ...

So it is no surprise to me that a crackpot should think that a path with biked painted all over it is in truth intended for dogs, and that another crackpot in another county knows that a track constructed for participants in that particular activity (among others) and named after a very famous figure in that activity, should be forbidden to participants in that activity. It must be totally logical to their strangely -wired brains ..,
 

brommieinkorea

Well-Known Member
Well, here in the USA cycling paths don't go too far and there are very rarely any services on them, so I couldn't. I have yet to have some moron on foot tell me I shouldn't be on a multi-use path. Usually I ring my bell and the dog is the first one to get over, but the people with the 30ft. long leashes can be real annoying.
 

Mad Doug Biker

I prefer animals to most people.
Location
Craggy Island
I think I've been spoiled, we have reasonable (sometimes very good) off road cycle tracks here, a sizable proportion that are old track beds for the long since deceased railways or follow rivers/canals.

Certainly, you can go for quite a distance over all off road between Glasgow and Balloch/Tarbert and also from Glasgow out to Hamilton, etc.

There are sections beside canals and the occasional small rough section which can be bad for road tires, but generally, they seem to be pretty good around here and generally maintained and hey, the roads are no better at times.

They don't go everywhere, that is true, but this is surely a fantasy thread anyway, as nothing is ever going to go everywhere you want anyway? 🤷

Besides, I've often considered the few gates encountered, to be almost like part of an assault course, where you have to do it all in the shortest time possible! 😆

But, however, if you still want to ride on the A82 like a fanny, then knock yourself out, quite literally 🙄
 
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Drago

Legendary Member
Probably, at least for much of the time. My first flat was in Milton Keynes, and as imperfect as the Redway system was it was completely comprehensive in a manner that no other UK town has managed and you could get from anywhere to anywhere barely touching the road. Indeed, some parts of it where the town - now city, no less - had incorporated older settlements was positively delightful.

So I enjoy the cut and thrust of road riding, but if a viable, safe, reasonably direct and properly maintained alternative were available I would likely use it the bulk of the time. Zero chance of them ever appearing here in rural Poshshire.
 

Mike_P

Guru
Location
Harrogate
Problem is even when provided there's no maintenance of them. I can play spot the odd bits of painted marking on one section and neither is there ever any review of them, the local one possibly met the requirements when it was formed but certainly is foul of current requirements with, for example, a limited number of blue shared surface signs compared to one formed a couple of years back which still fails to properly comply.
 

presta

Legendary Member
I am very lucky to live right next to the Rochdale Canal which is mainly good surfaced and very scenic.
I've used that to get between the Peak and the Dales a few times. I pick it up at Middleton, then come off at Todmorden for Mankinholes YHA, although I've also done the rest up to Sowerby Bridge. Middleton - Manchester I've only done on foot.
I never deliberately seek out cycle tracks when planning a route but if they are heading in my direction I am quite happy to make use of them.
I never plan to use them, not least because they aren't marked on the road atlas I use for touring. If I stumble upon one, the first thing I do is try to size up whether I it looks like one that'll lead me on a wild goose chase. I've had:
*The one at a roundabout on the edge of town with a signpost "Town Centre". Having waited several minutes to cross the road to it, it took me 200 yards to the other side of the roundabout where I then had to wait several minutes more just to cross back again.
*To lift the bike over the Armco in to the traffic lane in order to be able to make a right turn.
*Cycle paths signed to "City Centre" that spit you out in a residential street after100 yards, with nothing to navigate by.

cycle paths are the thin end of the wedge and once you take a cycle path you are acknowledging that you are a second class road user and the eventually will never be allowed back on the road network again
This. All they're doing is teaching motorists that cyclists have no place on the roads, and they get incandescent when they see money being spent on cycle paths and cyclists not using them. The public pressure to make cycle paths compulsory will just grow and grow until it becomes irresistible. It's coming, sure as God made little apples. There'll be no pressure to make them attractive to use then.
Safety and self preservation could always come before principle.
Have a read of John Adams' Risk, you can get it for free off his website these days.

Everybody has their own personal appetite for risk, some like lots, others don't like it much at all, but the one thing they all share in common is that they'll react negatively if you try to make them have either more or less than that which they're comfortable with, and behave in a way that seeks to reassert the level of risk that satisfies them. Hence motorists drive faster when they're wearing seatbelts, for example.

This leads to several problems:
1) People presume to tell someone with a different appetite how much risk they should want/have.
2) Allowing people to decide how much risk they have is fine whilst the person receiving the benefit is the same one incurring the costs, but with some risks the benefits accrue to the risk taker whilst the costs are inflicted on others, and people are 1000 times more sensitive to a risk inflicted on them compared with one that they choose for themselves.
3) Risk debates invariably start from the premise that risk is unwanted and undesirable, when all the evidence shows that this patently isn't the case. (For example, we needn't have made ourselves dependent on motor transport if we didn't think the risk of death was a price well worth paying in return for the independence that cars bring.) One person's freedom is another persons risk that they'll do something that's not in their interests, so a society without risk is one without any freedom too. Again, there's no evidence that that's what anyone wants.

There's all sorts of intereting stuff in Adams: accident migration, regression to mean, Willingness to Accept vs Willingness to Pay etc, etc.

nice ones on such as the Tissington Trail....
...are built on land vacated by trains and barges. The purpose built ones get relegated to waste land nobody wants between the gas works and the sewage farm, because there isn't the space or money to put them elsewhere.
I haven't got the stats to hand but I would think the number of people killed or seriously injured on cycle paths in comparison to on roads is probably miniscule.
It's John Franklin (author of Cyclecraft) who has collated all the studies on cycle path safety. You can find the list on his website.

People believe that their primary risk is from overtaking traffic because that's what feels intimidating, and they like cycle paths insofar as they get them away from this, but they are mistaken, most accidents occur at junctions, because that's where vehicles cross each other's paths. The problem with cycle paths is that they make junctions less safe for the following reasons:
1) They increase the number of vehicles crossing one anothers paths:

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2) They create confusion by increasing the junction complexity:

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3) They dilute a driver's sense of responsibility by removing cyclists from "his" road
4) They reduce visibility:

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5) They create needless conflict about who has right of way:

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and
6) In the case of painted lanes, they reduce passing distance because they turn the issue from one of leaving cyclists enough room to wobble into one of territory and borders:

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You probably heard that because a certain type of anti-cycleway cycling advocate likes to say such things. There's not really much evidence for it. Or against it, either, though. Having enough cycleways of any consistent standard to have enough incidents to make any useful generalisations has been pretty unusual until recently. I'll try to summarise what I remember:

There's a couple of half-cock analyses by John Franklin which claimed Milton Keynes's cycleways were more dangerous than the roads, but drilling deeper found (if I remember correctly) that he'd lumped all types of cycleways in together, from the bendy driveway-crossing residential ones to the much safer "grid ways", and he counted any crashes at a junction as for the cycleway not the road, plus he'd not adjusted for the types of cyclists: I lived there during the study time and it was mainly the fast roadies who still rode on roads — so experienced riders probably less likely to crash, but probably in bunches and at higher speeds when they do, mitigated by gloves, glasses and maybe other protective gear — with the rest of us using the adjacent redways, including the annoying underpasses swapping from one side of the road to the other.

There's also an oft-quoted study from about 1990 which was something to do with Lund University, looking at 1980s roadside cycleways somewhere, which claimed a 3x increase in danger for with-flow cycleways across side roads up to 11x for contra-flow at a major crossroads. That's the sort of study where the devil is probably in the detail, but there's no indication of assessing it for cycleway width, set back into the road signs, markings or kerbs or posts or whatever. It's contradicted by a recent study of the London CS routes, which found no significant difference, but that may also be down to a "safety in numbers" effect from attracting/concentrating cyclists onto the CS routes, or the small difference in speed (if any) between motorists and cyclists in London: it's difficult to left-hook someone if you're not going fast enough to pass them.

So, in short: it's complicated and both have studies to support them, but the older ones are very weak. Personally, I suspect it depends very much on the design of each cycleway. After all, a riverside cycleway with no roads crossing it is unlikely to have many cyclists left-hooked. A cycleway-carriageway junction with good intervisibility won't have many cyclists riding out in front of motorists who blatantly won't stop (no matter what the markings suggest) and will have more motorists see the cyclists approaching and hesitate to run them over while looking them in the eye! This is why we need good standards for common situations and a body like Active Travel England to actually enforce them!
So that's just three out of a total of 36 studies you've addressed, and then not with any evidence, you just make the assumptions that it suits you to make.

As Franklin says:
"This list is intended to be without bias, but little evidence has been found to suggest that cyclists are safer on paths than on roads. If you know of other research, please contact John Franklin."

If you have the evidence, why not send it to him?

I think the Camden scheme is the only one that's been subjected to a Public Inquiry isn't it? Here are some of the Inspector's Conclusions from the Inquiry:

there is a fundamental paucity of evidence to support the efficacy of the trial

In terms of safety, whilst pedestrian casualties along the corridor have reduced there has been an increase in cycling casualties which is unexplained but cannot be attributed to an increase in cycle use; the Council acknowledge that at best the cycle use has not decreased.

In the absence of detailed monitoring......the Council acknowledge that the redistribution of traffic is likely to result in an increase in pollution.

Whilst there are health benefits for those who walk and cycle along the corridor there is no evidence of a modal shift such that there are wider health benefits.

In my view, although finely balanced, these disadvantages outweigh the advantages that will arise from making the Order permanent. As such the Order should not be made.
 

Drago

Legendary Member
Presta raises many points worthy of consideration. This is probably why riding cycling infrastructure in the UK is statistically more dangerous than riding on the road - cos its sheet!
 

Ming the Merciless

There is no mercy
Photo Winner
Location
Inside my skull
Another problem with infrastructure is you never quite know what you’re going to get. Ride on a road anywhere in the country and you pretty much know what you are getting. But most cycle infra is piss poor , and why would you choose infra you’re not familiar with, if the usual experience is that?
 

Dogtrousers

Kilometre nibbler
There's a problem with saying "Statistically it's safer to ride on the road, so do so. Off you go." That is, it excludes all of those potential cyclists who do not feel safe on the road, and if that's all that's on offer then no thanks.

Some would-be cyclists will not become cyclists if they have no option but to mix it with the traffic. Those of us who are comfortable, or comfortable-ish with riding alongside other traffic need to recognise that ours is a privileged viewpoint and that there are those who find cycling in traffic intolerably stressful.

You can wave all of the very clever but utterly incomprehensible "denominator neglect" statistical data visualisations you like. People make personal decisions on gut feel. No one decides based on stats and risk analyses. No one. You might think you do, but actually you make your decision and cherry pick your justification.
 
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Oldhippy

Cynical idealist
We have a decent infrastructure, roads, but cars have invaded and swamped them. Get rid of them and provide a world class railway system and we're laughing. 😁
 
Another problem with infrastructure is you never quite know what you’re going to get. Ride on a road anywhere in the country and you pretty much know what you are getting. But most cycle infra is piss poor , and why would you choose infra you’re not familiar with, if the usual experience is that?

Completely agree. I used to agree with this ... until I rode in the Netherlands. Now I would use unfamiliar infrastructure without hesitation in NED, but would generally avoid it in the UK.
 
Round here we have some quite good cycle paths things
OK - some of them are of the 'paint a white line on the road' type - but a lot are fairly reasonable
What isn;t that good is the start and, especially, the end of them. The bit they did when upgrading the road tends to be good - then at the end of teh new bit the 'shared path' becomes narrower and narrower and then entrances start having kerbs ratehr than slopes and after while you start to wonder if it is still a cycle path

Which brings me to the point
Often it is not all that easy to tell if it is a cycle path or not
for example
I do a lot of riding on the local canals
I start in RUncorn and can ride for over 10 miles on canal paths before having to use roads for a bit through Warrington before using another canal paths to get back home
Now - I know that some of this is part of the Trans Pennine Trail - NCR 62 I think - and if you look you can see the LITTLE blue signs
But if you are not looking for them - or even if you ARE looking for them sometimes - they are not easy to see
Also - when I get onto the canal path I know it is part of a local trail that allows bicycles - but there are no signs or adverts showing this
At one point someone said to be that the cycling part stops at the first bridge in Moore - as I had been riding way past there all through lockdown I was rather surprised - but later on I noticed a big local information sign about the local area and the path

at the very bottom of it was so small print starting that from this point all the way back (from my point of view) to Runcorn was was maintained by the counsel for the uses of a variety of people - including cyclists
The map clearly showed the official trail stopping at that point
AFter that it is maintained by the Bridgeawater Canal compnay - i.e. Peel ports - and the wide tarmac bits stop and it goes down to a narrow towpath
APart from the small print at the base of the one big sign there is no indication about whether cycling is allowed or not on any part of the route

so how can a walked know whether it is a cycle path or not???

Hence the confusion as "some people" make up their own minds based on what they see and think (using think in a wide context here!)

I generally get very little grief from anyone on this path - possibly because I take a view that sa an ebike I should assume others have priority most of the time as I can easily stop and speed up if that makes it easier for other. But most people are very polite themselves anyway
 

Dogtrousers

Kilometre nibbler
Another problem with infrastructure is you never quite know what you’re going to get. Ride on a road anywhere in the country and you pretty much know what you are getting. But most cycle infra is piss poor , and why would you choose infra you’re not familiar with, if the usual experience is that?

Very true. Last year I rode through Burgess Hill in Surrey . West Sussex. This is a town I've ridden through a number of times, normally by just heading in to the town centre and out again. This time I elected to try out the cycle path route. To my surprise it was really jolly good, and made a nice change.

But my usual reaction to such an option is: "cycle path? yeah, right. It will be awful".
 
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