Intersex athletes in Women's sport

[MontyVeda]

Does 'equality in sport' really mean 'equal chance of winning' though? There must be athletes, male and female, competing at all levels, including the Olympics, who know they have next to no chance of beating the rest of the field. Why do they continue to take part?

because it's not the winning, it's the taking part... according to my mum.

 

[MontyVeda]

Taking part can be stressful and emotional... crying is just a release when it's all over

 

[Crackle]

I'm completely unqualified to comment on this, and struggling to form an opinion of any sort. However, seeing that, as far as I know (happy to be corrected) there is no current equivalent of Semenya in Road or Track Cycling, shouldn't this be in one of the other forums?

Well which forum would you put it in and how do you know there's no equivalent in cycling? That's kinda one of the points. Intersex athletes are not exactly carrying banners proclaiming their sex.

 

[Crackle]

Exactly. And not breaking down and crying because someone else was a bit faster than you in the end.

We're talking about competitive sport.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Well which forum would you put it in and how do you know there's no equivalent in cycling? That's kinda one of the points. Intersex athletes are not exactly carrying banners proclaiming their sex.

Is there an intersport forum?

I dunno. It's not a big deal, it just doesn't seem to be about cycling at all.

Don't worry, If I don't like it I'll just stop reading it or do an ignore-thread.

As you were.

 

[PhilDawson8270]

There must be athletes, male and female, competing at all levels, including the Olympics, who know they have next to no chance of beating the rest of the field. Why do they continue to take part?

At some level, they did have a chance of winning. And did win, a lot.

At the Olympics, for some winning at the Olympics is their target. For many though, the Olympics is a reward, not a target. They may have won all their national tournaments, and be the fastest, strongest, or whatever of their nation. While they may not have a chance at winning the Olympics. Just being there and competing is a fantastic honour, and a reward for their performance at their national level.

 

[theclaud]

I'm completely unqualified to comment on this, and struggling to form an opinion of any sort. However, seeing that, as far as I know (happy to be corrected) there is no current equivalent of Semenya in Road or Track Cycling, shouldn't this be in one of the other forums?

I see what you mean, but actually I think it's a good place to have posted it, as the Pro Cycling board takes women's sport seriously. There are ways it could spin off which are best taken to SC&P, and thank fark it's not in the Cafe, but at least it sets off here on a thoughtful footing.

 

[swansonj]

...
Who is really against these women competing?

(A) sports bureaucrats, mainly male, white, and older, whose raisin d'etre is controlling things, and who need to stop people doing things in order to show that they are controlling
(B) some other female athletes, in the present situation it would seem mainly white, who have been given a category of their own so that they don't compete against people with the genetic advantage of being male, and would now like the category changing so as to exclude people with other genetic advantages, so as to maximise their own chances of winning
(C) the sort of spectator who watches woman's sport mainly to ogle fit bodies, and would rather the bodies on show conformed to conventional standards of femininity and didn't challenge any comfy sexist stereotypes

(Several TMNs, I've only just been able to post this)

 

[swansonj]

Can I just say that I feel distinctly uncomfortable with third parties labelling the athletes concerned "intersex", which strikes me as (a) offensive and (b) prejudging the issue.

 

[Crackle]

Can I just say that I feel distinctly uncomfortable with third parties labelling the athletes concerned "intersex", which strikes me as (a) offensive and (b) prejudging the issue.

I think it's a valid term regarding sex. It's not a valid term regarding identity. Semenya is a woman but her sex is intersex as she has male and female characterisitcs. I don't think it's necessary to go into details but it doesn't mean the same thing for all people who might be characterised intersex.

 

[Buddfox]

If you strip things back then sport is something which acts as an inspiration to us, a motivator and an enjoyable experience. It keeps us fit, healthy, it gives us role models and it's a source of pride, to list but a few of its benefits. We need sport for these basic things. I go back to what Harper said about equality in sport being intrinsic to equality in society. By allowing intersex athletes to compete on equal terms you're undermining that equality and removing some of the motivations which make people, women, do sport. It's no longer seen as equal by the vast majority of people. And we are talking of a majority here. Intersex athletes account for a tiny portion of the population but are hugely over-represented in sport it seems. At the same time barring intersex athletes or putting an arbitrary limit on their abilities is no solution. So where do you go?

I'm struggling with this point. I quite agree that sport is an inspiration, a motivator etc. but I don't follow the assertion that equality in sport is intrinsic to equality in society. Neither sport not society are equal, in particular sport - that's probably it's most defining characteristic. The sport I've competed at the highest level in is rowing. I had a shot at U23 lightweight but realised after a couple of years of intense effort that I wasn't going to make the required standard. Did I give up rowing? No. Did it lessen my enjoyment of rowing? No. Not being the best at something applies to most of us, and I don't see any less motivation from participants just because they're not winning the Olympics.

As regards Caster Semenya, as a black person from South Africa, I actually take pleasure from seeing her take advantage of her natural talents over the money and privilege of other athletes. Happy to cut Sharpe some slack when commenting in the aftermath of a race, but she's certainly got this wrong.

 

[Crackle]

I'm struggling with this point. I quite agree that sport is an inspiration, a motivator etc. but I don't follow the assertion that equality in sport is intrinsic to equality in society. Neither sport not society are equal, in particular sport - that's probably it's most defining characteristic. The sport I've competed at the highest level in is rowing. I had a shot at U23 lightweight but realised after a couple of years of intense effort that I wasn't going to make the required standard. Did I give up rowing? No. Did it lessen my enjoyment of rowing? No. Not being the best at something applies to most of us, and I don't see any less motivation from participants just because they're not winning the Olympics

I was kind of hoping somebody would pick up on this. I've asserted it twice after quoting what Harper said and I took it to mean that role models in sport are one of the things that drive us to our own personal sporting achievements. Our role models don't necessarily have to win, it's often more complex than that, how they conduct themselves, the hurdles they've overcome etc... So in that sense they reflect society. Our role models have come from the same place as us but at the same time our identification with them is based on societal norms. If we see those norms being challenged, our role models competing against odds that are stacked against them our sense of outrage, fair play and our standards are challenged, we react to this as sport suddenly does not reflect our society.

That is what I meant and if it sounds muddy it's because it is, I'm still exploring what effect Intersex athletes really have, not on sport but on us, on society and ultimately I think that's what it's about to most people who don't have their fingers in the sporting till or a hand on the rudder of the IAAF who's motivations, as already said, might be entirely different in this.

As an aside, I think Elite sport as a sportsperson is ruthless in a way that perhaps society is not. Or perhaps it still is, that's an entirely different thought line.

 

[Bollo]

On the subject of arbitrary boundaries, it's something that's largely accepted for para-athletes as they compete in categories that attempt to equalise the impact of their disability. I'm sure there are plenty of edge cases where an athlete's competitiveness would depend on the judgement of a panel as much as their natural ability.

I don't think the idea translates easily though as the pool of intersex athletes (judged by whatever criteria?!) would still be relatively small, even before you overcome all the cultural/marketability/money issues.

Interesting thread.

 

[Buddfox]

I was kind of hoping somebody would pick up on this. I've asserted it twice after quoting what Harper said and I took it to mean that role models in sport are one of the things that drive us to our own personal sporting achievements. Our role models don't necessarily have to win, it's often more complex than that, how they conduct themselves, the hurdles they've overcome etc... So in that sense they reflect society. Our role models have come from the same place as us but at the same time our identification with them is based on societal norms. If we see those norms being challenged, our role models competing against odds that are stacked against them our sense of outrage, fair play and our standards are challenged, we react to this as sport suddenly does not reflect our society.

That is what I meant and if it sounds muddy it's because it is, I'm still exploring what effect Intersex athletes really have, not on sport but on us, on society and ultimately I think that's what it's about to most people who don't have their fingers in the sporting till or a hand on the rudder of the IAAF who's motivations, as already said, might be entirely different in this.

As an aside, I think Elite sport as a sportsperson is ruthless in a way that perhaps society is not. Or perhaps it still is, that's an entirely different thought line.

And Caster Semenya as a role model is one of the reasons why I support her right to compete. I can't even imagine the challenges she has faced just to get on the start line, let alone to deal with questions over her sex etc.

 

[Crackle]

On the subject of arbitrary boundaries, it's something that's largely accepted for para-athletes as they compete in categories that attempt to equalise the impact of their disability. I'm sure there are plenty of edge cases where an athlete's competitiveness would depend on the judgement of a panel as much as their natural ability.

I don't think the idea translates easily though as the pool of intersex athletes (judged by whatever criteria?!) would still be relatively small, even before you overcome all the cultural/marketability/money issues.

Interesting thread.

I had paralympics in mind as an example of how to decide sub-divisions but I can't see how it would work when applied to able bodied athletes and it's probably a can of worms you don't want to open.