Intersex athletes in Women's sport

[Darren Gregory]

Just finished reading this thread after wandering upon it while browsing. Fascinating subject.

I saw Semanya race during the olympics (on the telly I might add, not fortunate enought to go in person!) but I have to say it was the first time I can recal hearing about her. I am however aware of the existence of intersex condition but certainly no expert.

I cannot say I have an answer to the many questions raised, it certainly is a complicated issue. As others have said if you start punishing someone or limiting someone like Semenya for having a genetic condition where do you draw the line? Yes many atheletes may win or be succesful for non genetic reasons, training, equipment etc but as stated earlier are we going to ban Phelps because his feet are too big?

Going back to the Olypics and the Semenya race that I saw which I think someone posted an image of earlier I couldn't help but be impressed with Semenya's attitude immediately after the race, she came across as very humble, at least certainly the footage I saw.

Finally I think that unlike some threads on this and other forums those posting have been incredibly well behaved dicussing a complicated and potentially infalmatory subject.

 

[fimm]

You do realise that transgender has got nothing to do with this, and that being transgender gives Harper no special insight into Semanya's situation? Her arguments stand or fall on their own merits not on her positionality.

I do realise that Semenya is not transgender. However I think that Harper's experience of having her own running times fall off by 12% once she started taking medication to reduce her testosterone (something repeated in a study she did of other male to female transgender athletes) is relevant; and I think her views on the situation have more merits than mine.

 

[Crackle]

And Caster Semenya as a role model is one of the reasons why I support her right to compete. I can't even imagine the challenges she has faced just to get on the start line, let alone to deal with questions over her sex etc.

It's easy to forget, when you talk about the advantages of excess testosterone, that that alone won't get you to Olympic athlete level. it's also easy to forget the context when athletes don't come from the same society you mix in and the challenges that that brings.

I read a couple of reactions from S. Africans who see nothing wrong with Semenya competing and are quite aggrieved at the furore surrounding their athlete which brings us back to what was stated earlier about this being a white Western male issue of control and power.

 

[dellzeqq]

Sport should reflect society and it should reflect society for exactly the reasons of equality already mentioned.

well said, but I would amend it slightly to 'sport should reflect society at its best'. And that means not excluding those who don't conform to a type.

 

[coffeejo]

well said, but I would amend it slightly to 'sport should reflect society at its best'. And that means not excluding those who don't conform to a type.

This is one of the reasons I like the Olympics and Paralympics as they do at least try to bring this sentiment to life. The Refugees' Team springs to mind as an example.

 

[snorri]

Came across this cartoon this morning and couldn't quite translate it with the help of my Dutch/English dictionary.

A friend in the Netherlands tells me the picture is of a man consulting his sex-change surgeon. He asks "And you do sex change operations that allow me to retain my car parking ability?

 

[Crackle]

Came across this cartoon this morning and couldn't quite translate it with the help of my Dutch/English dictionary.

A friend in the Netherlands tells me the picture is of a man consulting his sex-change surgeon. He asks "And you do sex change operations that allow me to retain my car parking ability?

Wow snorri. That's pretty right field for this thread. I'm only going to let you get away with that because you're a Legendary member.

 

[snorri]

Wow snorri. That's pretty right field for this thread. I'm only going to let you get away with that because you're a Legendary member.

Woops! I thought it was a humorous take on male insecurity in these changing times, but please delete if you feel it is likely to cause offence.

 

[Fab Foodie]

Can I just say that I feel distinctly uncomfortable with third parties labelling the athletes concerned "intersex", which strikes me as (a) offensive and (b) prejudging the issue.

Judging by the amount of used condoms around the Olympic village after 2012 I'd suggest most athletes are intersex ....

 

[Crackle]

The Guardian has a similar take on what many on here have already said.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/caster-semenya-is-the-one-at-a-disadvantage

What's shocking is Coe's assertion that they will be able to force athletes to have treatment for hyperandrogenism. If that's the way the IAAF and IOC are going then I think they're on a collision course with CAS.

 

[summerdays]

Mod note: It's a difficult thread to place but I think it fits into Pro-cycling best as it about competitive sport.

 

[Bollo]

The Guardian has a similar take on what many on here have already said.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/caster-semenya-is-the-one-at-a-disadvantage

What's shocking is Coe's assertion that they will be able to force athletes to have treatment for hyperandrogenism. If that's the way the IAAF and IOC are going then I think they're on a collision course with CAS.

I'm usually all over the Guardian like a left-wing rash but missed this. 'Force' is a strong word; 'coerce' or 'blackmail' are probably more appropriate. There are difficult issues here, but Coe's just a vile human being.

 

[Buddfox]

And picking up a point dellzeqq made earlier but I really think that the IAAF is the organisation with the issue, not the IOC. I am not sure other sports would have reacted the same way.

 

[swansonj]

It's a difficult issue, yes, but isn't that the only term available at the moment?

I do not have a better alternative to offer.

My discomfort with"intersex" is that it's an "other" definition - one that establishes that "them" are different to "us". If sex is binary, then these folk are either male or female. If sex is not binary, then we all occupy positions on a spectrum and are all alike in that. What we seem to be constructing here is a system where most of us comfortably sit as either male or female on a binary system, and that is the norm, with a minority who don't fit our system and are labelled as other.

The obvious riposte is that this merely reflects the biological reality and unfortunately for these people they are in fact biologically aberrant. The logical conclusion would then seem to be that they should compete in the Paralympics not the Olympics. No-one has yet been prepared to vocalise that (though the alternative of enforced surgery seems equally obnoxious), though I don't doubt quite a few think that. And I don't want our language or our classification system to encourage that.

I guess my real discomfort is that we depersonalise a very personal and individual thing by discussing it in impersonal and categorical medical language.

Personally, I've never been entirely comfortable with the split (often insisted upon on these threads) between sex and gender, and I prefer to see them both as an intertwined continuum.

 

[Crackle]

And picking up a point dellzeqq made earlier but I really think that the IAAF is the organisation with the issue, not the IOC. I am not sure other sports would have reacted the same way.

I think it's also about governing bodies. There is a Canadian transgender cyclist, name temporarily forgotten, who was excluded from the Canadian Olympic team a while ago.