Is signalling a dying art?

[dodd82]

Sorry for the delay, it's been a busy week.


Not at all, I just wanted to be sure of what you are saying, which is that it is valid for someone to interpret 220 degrees as a right turn, and accordingly signal right until the turn, and it is also valid to interpret it as being straight on and so give no signal until the left indication at the exit. Two different behaviours from the same situation both of which you say are correct. You, therefore, should have no reason to criticise either driver for their indication if you interprete the roundabout differently.

What you have still failed to grasp is the value of a right indication on roundabouts, even if it doesn't match your interpretation of the highway code. I can give an example, which is not unique, of a local roundabout where there have been several accidents caused by vehicles leaving the roundabout from the right hand lane into the right lane of the exit, cutting across a vehicle in the left lane that was leaving the roundabout by the following exit. I'm having to guess here as I haven't been able to ask the offending drivers, but I suspect that driver 1 thought that driver 2 was going to leave into lane 1 of the same exit. If driver 2 had been signalling right as he approached exit 1 the accident probably wouldn't happen. So the question for you in this circumstance is: which is better, making a signal that is not recommended by the highway code or having an accident?

Another example is on that same roundabout, and between the same 2 exits many drivers indicate left before exit 1 but leave at exit 2. There are some drivers entering from exit 1 that might assume that the driver on the roundabout is precisely following the signalling recommendation of the highway code and so will believe that they can safely enter the roundabout in front of the car that is exitting. The question for you here is would it be safer for the driver on the roundabout to be indicating right prior to exit 1, or would this be stupid as you have previously stated.

I accept what you said previously about roads such as the A1 in the rush hour where 2 lanes of traffic are leaving a roundabout on a major route, and in cases like that it wouldn't be appropriate for all traffic to squeeze into the left lane to exit.


No, not really, A lot of my driving habits were provided when I went on a defensive driving course many years ago. The instructors were experienced advanced drivers and ex-police drivers, so I value their advice more than yours as I suspect you are inexperienced by comparison.

Oh dear - we've got ourselves a trier.

Face it, you're wrong. Your example of a one lane roundabout is your attempt to justify your original stance, as is your bizarre decision to argue that you shouldn't exit a roundabout from the right hand lane.

The discussion was about a two lane roundabout, with a driver in the left lane signalling right but intending to continue straight.

You should not be signalling right.

That's not an interpretation of the highway code - that's a fact.

Poor driving - such as drivers that indicate left too early, or don't indicate left at all before leaving, does not change that fact. Several people have given you examples as to why the right signal is confusing and therefore dangerous.

You're obviously someone who is never wrong, so congratulations with that.

Now, if you wish to debate such points as whether you should leave a roundabout in the right lane, then that's a separate subject matter. You're wrong about that too, but it's not helpful to cloud the original discussion with it.

 

[Iainj837]

I always indicate when it's needed ie when there are other road users around.
The thing I don't understand when a car over takes you the driver then signals his is pulling in.
Maybe I'm being thick but I know he will be pulling back to the left side

 

[Arfcollins]

Oh dear - we've got ourselves a trier.

Oh dear, we've got ourselves a patroniser.

Face it, you're wrong. Your example of a one lane roundabout is your attempt to justify your original stance,

It applies just as well to 2 lane roundabouts. I took out the 2 lane factor so that we don't have to also discuss poor lane discipline.

as is your bizarre decision to argue that you shouldn't exit a roundabout from the right hand lane.

You really should read again the example I gave you in my last post which shows that this can be dangerous.

The discussion was about a two lane roundabout, with a driver in the left lane signalling right but intending to continue straight.
You should not be signalling right.
That's not an interpretation of the highway code - that's a fact.

One man's fact is another man's interpretation. You really should read again the other example in my last post to see where a right hand signal can prevent an accident. This is what signals are for.

Poor driving - such as drivers that indicate left too early, or don't indicate left at all before leaving, does not change that fact. Several people have given you examples as to why the right signal is confusing and therefore dangerous.

And I, in turn, offer examples where that signalling is good driving, because it will alert a prat that their action may cause an accident. Do you have any examples of accidents where the driver said 'I was confused by that indicator and this resulted in me hitting something'?

You're obviously someone who is never wrong, so congratulations with that.

Not at all. Quote: I accept what you said previously about roads such as the A1 in the rush hour where 2 lanes of traffic are leaving a roundabout on a major route, and in cases like that it wouldn't be appropriate for all traffic to squeeze into the left lane to exit. Unquote.
By the way, do I detect a pot/kettle situation here?

Now, if you wish to debate such points as whether you should leave a roundabout in the right lane, then that's a separate subject matter. You're wrong about that too, but it's not helpful to cloud the original discussion with it.

It's all part of the same issue as it is linked to whether other people on the roundabout are indicating or not.

You must have missed the questions I asked regarding the 2 fairly common examples of bad driving I gave you in my last post. I'd still be interested to have your answers to those.

 

[dodd82]

I am being patronising because logic has failed.

I'll agree something with you. If you can find one official piece of literature where signalling right from the left hand lane at a roundabout, with the sole purpose of letting the driver waiting to enter a roundabout that you're staying on, is advised, then I'll admit that you have a point.

But seeing as the only thing you've posted up so far proves out point, I fear this maybe a long wait.

At present:

- There is nothing out there backing up your claim
- There have been several examples given of why what you're doing is dangerous/stupid

That makes it something that you do because you think it's helpful... which simply makes you deluded - nothing else.

 

[Arfcollins]

I am being patronising because logic has failed.

I'm happy to go down the logic route.
Logically, the main purpose (some would say the only purpose) of signalling is to provide some information to other road users about your intentions so that, if necessary, they can change their speed, position or direction to avoid an accident.

Now, bearing in mind the logic of that statement (or if you don't think it is logical please explain why) I'll take you back to my examples, which suggest a logical response to a situation that can (and has) resulted in an accident:

QUOTE I can give an example, which is not unique, of a local roundabout where there have been several accidents caused by vehicles leaving the roundabout from the right hand lane into the right lane of the exit, cutting across a vehicle in the left lane that was leaving the roundabout by the following exit. I'm having to guess here as I haven't been able to ask the offending drivers, but I suspect that driver 1 thought that driver 2 was going to leave into lane 1 of the same exit. If driver 2 had been signalling right as he approached exit 1 the accident probably wouldn't happen. So the question for you in this circumstance is: which is better, making a signal that is not recommended by the highway code or having an accident?

Another example is on that same roundabout, and between the same 2 exits many drivers indicate left before exit 1 but leave at exit 2. There are some drivers entering from exit 1 that might assume that the driver on the roundabout is precisely following the signalling recommendation of the highway code and so will believe that they can safely enter the roundabout in front of the car that is exitting. The question for you here is would it be safer for the driver on the roundabout to be indicating right prior to exit 1, or would this be stupid as you have previously stated.UNQUOTE

Please tell me whether it is better to let these accidents happen, than to use a signal that is not forbidden in the Highway Code that would help to prevent that accident.

I'll agree something with you. If you can find one official piece of literature where signalling right from the left hand lane at a roundabout, with the sole purpose of letting the driver waiting to enter a roundabout that you're staying on, is advised, then I'll admit that you have a point.

But seeing as the only thing you've posted up so far proves out point, I fear this maybe a long wait.

Sorry, can't find that. Nor can I find where it is forbidden, maybe you could help me here.

At present:

- There is nothing out there backing up your claim
- There have been several examples given of why what you're doing is dangerous/stupid

I haven't seen any examples here of why it is dangerous, just vague statements that is confusing and so it must be dangerous. I asked you to provide me one but you haven't yet.
QUOTE Do you have any examples of accidents where the driver said 'I was confused by that indicator and this resulted in me hitting something'?UNQUOTE
To be fair, I wouldn't expect any driver to say that, so just give me an example from your experience, or a report you have seen. A valid example would show that the accident was caused by the driver indicating right, rather than the other driver being an idiot. If you can provide this I will have to reconsider my stance.

 

[dodd82]

Here's your mistake: you are speaking as if the Highway Code is a list of don'ts. It's not. It's a list of do's, primarily.

So just because what you do is not forbidden does not mean it is advised or correct practice. There are probably a lot of things that fall into that category. The highway code doesn't forbid closing your eyes and hoping for the best, but I'm pretty sure it's ill advised and stupid.

The fact remains - you think it's a sensible thing to do, yet nothing backs up that view. Nowhere is there any advice or guidance that you should signal right to indicate that you're staying in the same lane.

Now, if you're so arrogant to think that you've come up with such a great, novel idea that it's just simple genius and advance thinking on your part that it's not featured in any advice guides, then you have serious issues.

If not, why is it not advised by anyone?

That is the crux of the point, so I will respond to your other points in another post.

 

[dodd82]

Logically, the main purpose (some would say the only purpose) of signalling is to provide some information to other road users

Actually, no. That's not correct.

Here's a better description, from the government's own web site: Signals warn and inform other road users, including pedestrians of your intended actions.


You know what else it says?

- make sure your signals will not confuse others


Hmm. Where have you been told that before?

Here's another interesting snippet:

The main occasions when a driver would consider giving a mechanical indicator signal are when:
• Moving off
• Stopping
• Turning at junctions
• Overtaking
• Changing lanes
• Passing stationary or very slow-moving vehicles (includes meeting situations)

Can we all see anything about letting someone know you're intending to stay in the same lane?

Nope, thought not.

Look at what this is telling you. It's telling you that using your right hand indicator indicates to other road users that you are turning or moving out to the right.

That is what your right hand indicator is for. Don't believe me? Read it for yourself:

http://www.learnerdriving.com/learn-to-drive/highway-code/road-signals

Seriously, how much more of this do you need to realise that you're wrong?

What you're doing with your indicator is something that you think is helpful to other road users, but in fact - as it has been explained to you - it's not. It features nowhere in any driving guidance and actually directly contradicts much of the guidance given.

Rather than ask me for examples, maybe you should sit down with a cup of tea and think about why no authority seems to agree remotely with your new fangled idea.

 

[400bhp]

You two - get a room.

 

[dodd82]

Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy debate

Or is there?

 

[400bhp]

Debate

 

[shunter]

EXAMPLE 1 - I can give an example, which is not unique, of a local roundabout where there have been several accidents caused by vehicles leaving the roundabout from the right hand lane into the right lane of the exit, cutting across a vehicle in the left lane that was leaving the roundabout by the following exit. I'm having to guess here as I haven't been able to ask the offending drivers, but I suspect that driver 1 thought that driver 2 was going to leave into lane 1 of the same exit. If driver 2 had been signalling right as he approached exit 1 the accident probably wouldn't happen. So the question for you in this circumstance is: which is better, making a signal that is not recommended by the highway code or having an accident?

EXAMPLE 2 -Another example is on that same roundabout, and between the same 2 exits many drivers indicate left before exit 1 but leave at exit 2. There are some drivers entering from exit 1 that might assume that the driver on the roundabout is precisely following the signalling recommendation of the highway code and so will believe that they can safely enter the roundabout in front of the car that is exitting. The question for you here is would it be safer for the driver on the roundabout to be indicating right prior to exit 1, or would this be stupid as you have previously stated.UNQUOTE

I'll have a go at this;

Example 1 - This situation can not happen unless someone has also ignored the rules of the highway code. The only person who can be beside the person (person 1) in the right lane of the roundabout exiting on the right lane on the road straight on will be someone also going straight through the roundabout who entered the roundabout at the same time as person 1. Now you may suggest what about people entering the roundabout from the road on the left. Well, they must give way to all traffic already on the roundabout i.e. both lanes. If they don't and they enter on the outside lane of the roundabout slightly in front of person 1 who is already on the roundabout then he has no way of knowing whether that person is doing a left turn off with him or going straight through and therefore cutting across him. The left turn option is obviously the least dangerous but then you don't know if person 1 has already decided with the road being clear that he will leave on the left lane. It is very difficult to actually see the indicators of car entering from the left of person 1.

Example 2 - Again like Example 1 you are describing a person entering the roundabout while cars are already on the roundabout - they are not giving way. You should not trust peoples signals. The earliest you could go is when the car is pulling of. Oh and it is also wrong to signal left to early .

Another problem I have seen quite a few times on roundabouts is caused by drivers who have gained a right of way to enter the roundabout ( no cars to their right) but assume a right of way through the roundabout and therfore cut across the cars that entered just in front of them at the next exit.

 

[dodd82]

several accidents caused by vehicles leaving the roundabout from the right hand lane into the right lane of the exit, cutting across a vehicle in the left lane that was leaving the roundabout by the following exit

Does it not go without saying that people should not be leaving the roundabout from the right hand lane if the only way of doing it is to 'cut across the vehicle in the left lane'.

I didn't realise we needed to state the bleeding obvious on here.

 

[Arfcollins]

I'll have a go at this;

Example 1 - This situation can not happen unless someone has also ignored the rules of the highway code. The only person who can be beside the person (person 1) in the right lane of the roundabout exiting on the right lane on the road straight on will be someone also going straight through the roundabout who entered the roundabout at the same time as person 1. Now you may suggest what about people entering the roundabout from the road on the left. Well, they must give way to all traffic already on the roundabout i.e. both lanes. If they don't and they enter on the outside lane of the roundabout slightly in front of person 1 who is already on the roundabout then he has no way of knowing whether that person is doing a left turn off with him or going straight through and therefore cutting across him. The left turn option is obviously the least dangerous but then you don't know if person 1 has already decided with the road being clear that he will leave on the left lane. It is very difficult to actually see the indicators of car entering from the left of person 1.

Example 2 - Again like Example 1 you are describing a person entering the roundabout while cars are already on the roundabout - they are not giving way. You should not trust peoples signals. The earliest you could go is when the car is pulling of. Oh and it is also wrong to signal left to early .

Another problem I have seen quite a few times on roundabouts is caused by drivers who have gained a right of way to enter the roundabout ( no cars to their right) but assume a right of way through the roundabout and therfore cut across the cars that entered just in front of them at the next exit.

You are absolutely right that the accidents are only caused by various degrees of bad driving, driver 1 in example 1 and both drivers in example 2. What I am saying is that right hand signalling would help to avoid the accidents in both cases. What do you think?

 

[Arfcollins]

I can't see me spending much more time on this, but to briefly answer your points.

If you want to quote from my post please do it in full so it contains my full meaning:
I said: Logically, the main purpose (some would say the only purpose) of signalling is to provide some information to other road users <snip> about your intentions so that, if necessary, they can change their speed, position or direction to avoid an accident. <snip>

That's pretty much the same as Signals warn and inform other road users, including pedestrians of your intended actions. Except I added the reason for signalling. Which is to avoid accidents that might occur if you don't signal.

I agree with you that signals should not be confusing. What we disagree on is whether what I am suggesting is confusing to most road users and is therefore dangerous. We can argue all we like about whether the highway code allows or forbids or is indifferent to this. The important thing is the situations caused by prats that we find ourselves in every day on the roads, and what we do to survive them.

No, I'm not arrogant, I didn't invent this 'new-fangled idea', it was introduced to me by highly qualified driving instructors, some 30 years ago.

Yes, of course it is 'bleeding obvious' that the examples of accidents I give are caused by people driving badly. I'm suggesting that a signal that you believe to be dangerous and stupid would probably prevent those accidents. You seem to be avoiding answering my questions on those. Or I am I wrong there, that you can give me an example of how the indication will in itself cause an accident? What I'm trying to establish is whether my view that the indication has a benefit is more valid than yours that it is dangerous. I've laid out some examples to support my case and asked you to give me your specific opinion on them. You have twice avoided doing this. I've also asked you for your example, which I thought you must have as you seem very agitated about the idea of someone indicating in the way I suggest. Again you have failed to do this twice.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but the time has come for you to either put up or shut up.

 

[dodd82]

What's the point? Yes I have seen confusion, braking and accidents from people reacting to an incorrect signal - including the signalling that we're discussing. But I could be making that up, so what value does it hold?

As I said - there's no guidance backing up what you think is a good idea and there's multiple sites showing that signalling is to show that you're turning or moving out. You were strangely quiet about those multiple sources of info.

Face it, the summary to this is that you do something that you think is a sensible thing to do, but it's not the suggested or recommended way of doing things. That's arrogance on your part.

Perhaps your greatest problem is that you're considering you (the person in the left lane going straight on) and the driver waiting to enter the roundabout, but you're not considering the person behind you or the drivers in the adjacent lane. You're so busy telling us how helpful it is to the person waiting to enter that you've forgotten anyone else exists.

One other thought - have you ever considered that the person waiting to join the roundabout might see your signal and assume that you're changing into the right hand lane of the roundabout, thus making it safe for them to join (turning left)?

You can carry on in your delusional, arrogant world where you think what you're doing is a good thing. But the reality is it's not recommended anywhere (for a good reason? Surely not) and it's confusing.