Jockey wheels, maintenance?

[Blue Hills]

It could possibly be the change of chain at the same time but I must admit alan O that after changing the jockey wheels (they had gone all pointed) the drivetrain does seem more "positive".

Though should say that I showed the pre-change jockey wheels to an incredibly experienced Dr Bike guy whose word I tend to take as gospel and he did say that I could just leave them.

Anyways, I have decided to take more care of the things in future, particularly with a quality mech - the bits of grit I found surely couldn't be doing things much good.

 

[raleighnut]

It could possibly be the change of chain at the same time but I must admit alan O that after changing the jockey wheels (they had gone all pointed) the drivetrain does seem more "positive".

Though should say that I showed the pre-change jockey wheels to an incredibly experienced Dr Bike guy whose word I tend to take as gospel and he did say that I could just leave them.

Anyways, I have decided to take more care of the things in future, particularly with a quality mech - the bits of grit I found surely couldn't be doing things much good.

Put it this way if you give em a good filling of grease so that when you put the outer 'plates' on it squidges out you won't get any grit make it's way past the labyrinth seal.

 

[Blue Hills]

Thanks for the tip.

Re those "plates", are they the same both sides?

Pretty much standard?

I take it they are just plates and have nothing to do with the way the bearing works?

I am terrible at taking things apart and never being sure if I've put them back together correctly, wondering if I've compromised something. My good intentions to be super methodical/take notes usually fly out the window. Luckily haven't messed up any wheel bearings yet.

 

[Nigelnightmare]

I recently renewed mine on a shimano Deore 9 speed.
The new ones are aluminium with sealed bearings and neither of them have any float.
Gear change is precise but it does take a little bit of fiddling about with to get it set up for the indexing.

 

[Salty seadog]

never being sure if I've put them back together correctly, wondering if I've compromised something. My good intentions to be super methodical/take notes usually fly out the window. Luckily haven't messed up any wheel bearings yet.

Are you me.....?

 

[Nigelnightmare]

No, I'm me & you're you.
Simples

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I will replace them now and again but do not look at them other than when fitting a new chain.

 

[raleighnut]

I realised today that I have a 105 10speed rear mech 'between bikes' at the mo (it came off the Equipe when I nicked the GS version off the Road Ace so I could fit the Ultegra triple)

The top jockey wheel still has float so whoever posted that they don't is wrong, maybe 11 or 12 speed mechs don't have 'float' but my 10speed certainly does.

If anyone wonders why I haven't fitted the short cage back on the Road Ace I've got a mate with a full car servicing workshop including a proper 'parts washer' with pumped and filtered recycled degreaser I just ain't got round to going to see them to give the mech a thorough clean before I strip and regrease it prior to fitting.

EDIT it's a 5600 mech.

 

[Ajax Bay]

I asked: "Anyone find a decent explanation of what improvement in effectiveness using jockey wheels which are top/bottom designated (and fitted the correct way round) offer over a pair which are the same. I've read all the stuff about the top one needing sideways float but (having searched) can find no decent explanations."

I have a 105 10speed rear mech . . . . The top jockey wheel still has float so whoever posted that they don't is wrong,

"Whoever!"

It seems 10 speed up no longer need the float,

As I said, the BBB replacements I fitted are identical. I cannot discern any reduction of effectiveness of the RD.
The OEM Shimano ones in the RD-4400 measure precisely the same, to within a 0.01mm and the metal bushings the wheels roll on are each 7.07mm wide. The bottom one has a loose metal bush that inserts into the plastic wheel - metal on plastic. The top (guide) has a smaller diameter metal bush that inserts into the wheel that also has a fixed metal bush. The top wheel itself is narrower which allows the sideways movement (of about one mm).
Someone said elsewhere: "if the mech is new the float in the top pulley is useful because it gives you a little tolerance against errors in adjustment etc. But when the mech is worn, arguably the slop in all the pivots means you have 'float' without there being any in the pulley. So some people happily use non-floating top pulleys on worn mechs."

 

[raleighnut]

I asked: "Anyone find a decent explanation of what improvement in effectiveness using jockey wheels which are top/bottom designated (and fitted the correct way round) offer over a pair which are the same. I've read all the stuff about the top one needing sideways float but (having searched) can find no decent explanations."

"Whoever!"

As I said, the BBB replacements I fitted are identical. I cannot discern any reduction of effectiveness of the RD.
The OEM Shimano ones in the RD-4400 measure precisely the same, to within a 0.01mm and the metal bushings the wheels roll on are each 7.07mm wide. The bottom one has a loose metal bush that inserts into the plastic wheel - metal on plastic. The top (guide) has a smaller diameter metal bush that inserts into the wheel that also has a fixed metal bush. The top wheel itself is narrower which allows the sideways movement (of about one mm).
Someone said elsewhere: "if the mech is new the float in the top pulley is useful because it gives you a little tolerance against errors in adjustment etc. But when the mech is worn, arguably the slop in all the pivots means you have 'float' without there being any in the pulley. So some people happily use non-floating top pulleys on worn mechs."

I could have used the word whomsoever, I just wasn't sure who posted that they didn't have it. Anyone who rode bikes with a Simplex derailleur will have had a moment when the sideplates on the chain have ridden up on the top of the sprockets if you 'fluff' a change, not nice.

 

[Ajax Bay]

Not getting at your grammer(sic) - your use of "whoever" is correct. Just pointing out that the only poster I could find that had suggested they didn't have float was . . . you. Strawman? But apart from the 'if you don't index the RD properly the float will adjust to make up' I still can't find any authoritative rationale for the float.

 

[Salty seadog]

I could have used the word whomsoever, I just wasn't sure who posted that they didn't have it. Anyone who rode bikes with a Simplex derailleur will have had a moment when the sideplates on the chain have ridden up on the top of the sprockets if you 'fluff' a change, not nice.

Not getting at your grammer(sic) - your use of "whoever" is correct. Just pointing out that the only poster I could find that had suggested they didn't have float was . . . you. Strawman? But apart from the 'if you don't index the RD properly the float will adjust to make up' I still can't find any authoritative rationale for the float.

I said that recently, I thought it was in this thread but must be elsewhere. I was talking to a mechanic recently as I'd serviced the jockey wheels on the 10 speed Montpellier. It had no float so asked about it as I'd also read elsewhere that sram don't have float in theirs. He said that the higher speed cassettes don't have them as it could interfere with good shifting with the sprockets being so close together.

 

[Ajax Bay]

I noticed a rather large (?20t) tension jockey wheel on one of the TdF rider's bike. Presumably that significantly reduces the rpm and therefore friction losses.

 

[raleighnut]

Not getting at your grammer(sic) - your use of "whoever" is correct. Just pointing out that the only poster I could find that had suggested they didn't have float was . . . you. Strawman? But apart from the 'if you don't index the RD properly the float will adjust to make up' I still can't find any authoritative rationale for the float.

It was a reply to something @Salty seadog posted,

I don't know if there is a difference in construction but on sub 10 speed the top one has a little float, sideways motion. this is not the case in the 10/11/12 speed bikes as the float then contributes to poor shifting as the cogs are closer together together and tolerances tighter.

At the time I'd forgotten that I actually had two 10 speed Shimano 105 rear mechs although neither bike they're fitted to are 10 speed (one's 6 speed with friction shifters the other is an 8/9 speed Dura-Ace cassette that had 'bar-ends' but now has 7 speed downtube shifters but they both index fine on the 8 speed Dura-Ace fitted)

However due to me fitting an Ultegra triple I had in the shed (originally planned to go onto a Mercian 'Audax Special' frame I had plans to commission but never did) to the 6 speed I had nicked the GS version off another bike and swapped it for the short cage on the Equipe but I haven't got around to re-fitting the short cage to the Road Ace so I could have a look at it and guess what The Top Jockey Wheel on a 10 speed 5600 (105) has float

 

[Ajax Bay]

The Top Jockey Wheel on a 10 speed 5600 (105) has float

Why? i.e. for what purpose? Why do the 11 speed RDs not have float? Or do they?
Observe that the RD-5600 is a rather 'old' 10 speed. Perhaps Shimano realised/decided/determined float had no merit.