Magnetic copper bracelets - I'm a sceptic

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Drago

Legendary Member
I have quite a collection of them and wear one all the time when I'm awake. Whether they work with any of my aches and pains is anyone's guess.

One thing is for sure - they're a lot nicer than statins! :laugh:
 

Milkfloat

An Peanut
Location
Midlands
Seeing as the OP is a sceptic then the bracelet will not work as a placebo, you need to think it will work for it to actually work.
 
D

Deleted member 26715

Guest
Sorry, I honestly thought you wanted to have a conversation about science and whether these bracelets 'work' or not. You clearly don't, which leaves me unsure as to why you quoted me in the first place. Possibly some type of humour that I don't understand. I'm sometimes not terribly good at it.
Not at all, you claim to have scientific proof they don't work, I have factual evidence they do, so if you choose not to believe there is little I can do about it.
 

winjim

Smash the cistern
Not at all, you claim to have scientific proof they don't work, I have factual evidence they do, so if you choose not to believe there is little I can do about it.
I don't claim to have scientific proof they don't work. In fact we haven't even settled on a definition of 'work', until we do that then nobody can reasonably make any claims at all.
 

winjim

Smash the cistern
Science doesn't care what people believe.
I think it very much does. Certainly in this case where any effects may be due to the placebo effect, of which belief is a strong part, and in the more general case where a belief can be expressed as a testable hypothesis.

Incidentally, this
Seeing as the OP is a sceptic then the bracelet will not work as a placebo, you need to think it will work for it to actually work.
may not be true. There have been studies which suggest that placebo can have some effect even when people know that's what they are being given.
 

winjim

Smash the cistern
Beliefs don't get tested - theories do. Massive difference. Theories have to have a basis in fact, before they can be tested. In that sense, beliefs are irrelevant to science.
You form a theory based on the evidence gathered from the testing of hypotheses, or beliefs.

Somebody believes a copper bracelet 'works'. If we can agree on what is meant by 'works', then that belief can be tested.
 

Stompier

Senior Member
You form a theory based on the evidence gathered from the testing of hypotheses, or beliefs.

Somebody believes a copper bracelet 'works'. If we can agree on what is meant by 'works', then that belief can be tested.

A belief is not the same as a hypothesis. You can't test beliefs. For example - you might 'believe' that Santa delivers everyone's presents on christmas eve. But you can't test that in science without first theorising how he might physically deliver several hundred million presents to several hundred million locations around the globe in only a matter of a few hours. Alternatively, you might 'believe' in the resurrection - but you can't test it scientifically without first developing a theory of how someone might return from the dead. It's not the belief that's being tested - it's the theory of the known or unknown physical events which might explain it. Let's leave 'belief' out of it?
 

classic33

Leg End Member
A belief is not the same as a hypothesis. You can't test beliefs. For example - you might 'believe' that Santa delivers everyone's presents on christmas eve. But you can't test that in science without first theorising how he might physically deliver several hundred million presents to several hundred million locations around the globe in only a matter of a few hours. Alternatively, you might 'believe' in the resurrection - but you can't test it scientifically without first developing a theory of how someone might return from the dead. It's not the belief that's being tested - it's the theory of the known or unknown physical events which might explain it. Let's leave 'belief' out of it?
That covers just about every medication on the market today. With many taken long term in the belief that they do help the condition they're being taken for.
 

winjim

Smash the cistern
A belief is not the same as a hypothesis. You can't test beliefs. For example - you might 'believe' that Santa delivers everyone's presents on christmas eve. But you can't test that in science without first theorising how he might physically deliver several hundred million presents to several hundred million locations around the globe in only a matter of a few hours. Alternatively, you might 'believe' in the resurrection - but you can't test it scientifically without first developing a theory of how someone might return from the dead. It's not the belief that's being tested - it's the theory of the known or unknown physical events which might explain it. Let's leave 'belief' out of it?
You're jumping ahead of yourself, you don't need to start building convoluted models straight off the bat. It's perfectly reasonable to establish whether something works before you start thinking about how it might work. In your Santa example you could try and figure out how he might do it, the magic reindeer model or whatever, and come to a conclusion about how likely or unlikely it is, but that still doesn't tell you if he comes at all. He may well do it by some as yet unknown mechanism. In the first instance, all you've got to do is sit in a kid's bedroom on Christmas Eve and observe what happens. Then you can start building a model that you think explains your observations.

In the paper experiment that I'm attempting to construct around these bracelets, one plausible outcome is even that the subject's belief that they work is both the result, and the explanation for the result. Belief is part of what we're investigating.
 
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