My new bank card will let me buy stuff at a checkout, but won't let me access my account from an ATM

[Andy in Germany]

I've dropped mine on concrete a number of times, without it breaking anything (always in a case). Not had it sulk on me yet either. DO have to watch the battery, but I am generally pretty careful about that, and haven't had an issue yet.

That's my point; I don't have to watch the battery, because I use a card.

I've had customers ask me to let them plug their phones in so they can pay for things, and seem people thrown off trains because their phone wasn't working (which I appreciate may or may not be true).

I also seem to work in an environment that destroys phones. I'm not sure why.

 

[Andy in Germany]

This "tap on tap out" system seems to be becoming common. They are currently advertising it as making travel smoother on Transport for Wales.

I think it is supposed to make things quicker because you don't need to select your destination at the start, it is worked out when you tap off.

Except it doesn't because when you get off, you're digging around for your phone/card while trying to gather bags and other items to get off the bus. And then trying to wave it under the machine when you really need to concentrate on leaving. And on British buses with only one door, this also means you're doing this as other passengers are trying to get onto the bus...

It's a very complex way of making a worse system than most European cities and regions have had for nearly fifty years; we have no tapping anything: just get on, get off. Occasionally I'm asked to show my card, even more occasionally with a photo ID.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

You can't charge different amounts for cash or debit/credit card, but you can give discounts for use of apps or loyalty cards, which is what this is.

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood @Andy in Germany, I thought he said that in York paying cash costs more than using tap on/off.
Tap on/off is not a loyalty card, well at least not here in Scotland.
You tap on/off with any card that can pay, afaik the First bus app is scanned for a ticked already purchased on the app.
I'll ask around if First bus here in Glasgow charge more if you pay cash.

 

[Alex321]

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood @Andy in Germany, I thought he said that in York paying cash costs more than using tap on/off.
Tap on/off is not a loyalty card, well at least not here in Scotland.
You tap on/off with any card that can pay, afaik the First bus app is scanned for a ticked already purchased on the app.
I'll ask around if First bus here in Glasgow charge more if you pay cash.

Here in Wales, the advert makes it look like it is only the specific tap on tap off card that can be used.

But that is misleading, what it is actually saying is to be careful you don't have other contactless cards near the one you are using, because you could ten "tap in" more than once with different cards.

But there is no difference in fares for using it.

[EDIT]
And as far as I can see, there is also no difference in fares for using tap on tap off in York. Not sure why Andy thought it was different?

 

[classic33]

Except it doesn't because when you get off, you're digging around for your phone/card while trying to gather bags and other items to get off the bus. And then trying to wave it under the machine when you really need to concentrate on leaving. And on British buses with only one door, this also means you're doing this as other passengers are trying to get onto the bus...

It's a very complex way of making a worse system than most European cities and regions have had for nearly fifty years; we have no tapping anything: just get on, get off. Occasionally I'm asked to show my card, even more occasionally with a photo ID.

They'd to desensitise the machines you were using. The original ones could read your card in your pocket. They had a range of 3'33/8" or 1 metre. To make things easier for them. They'd a machine near the doors and the base of the stairs. Pass the second one and you were "marked" as getting off.

First never introduced their three door buses in this area, after the early trial runs. Too many problems.

 

[classic33]

Here in Wales, the advert makes it look like it is only the specific tap on tap off card that can be used.

But that is misleading, what it is actually saying is to be careful you don't have other contactless cards near the one you are using, because you could ten "tap in" more than once with different cards.

But there is no difference in fares for using it.

Put two cards near the machine and it won't read either. You're payment will be rejected.

Proof, if proof is needed, can be got by trying to pay using two cash cards together. Or even a loyalty card and a cash card.

 

[Alex321]

First York say that when using tap on tap off
"You'll only pay for what you use, with single fares calculated based on distance. A single journey will cost £1.50, £2.60, or a maximum of £3.00. "

So I think if he was charged £3.00 for the journey paying cash, it would have been the same using tap on tap off. They advertise journeys as being "from £1.50", that doesn't mean that one would have been.

 

[Alex321]

Except it doesn't because when you get off, you're digging around for your phone/card while trying to gather bags and other items to get off the bus. And then trying to wave it under the machine when you really need to concentrate on leaving. And on British buses with only one door, this also means you're doing this as other passengers are trying to get onto the bus...

It's a very complex way of making a worse system than most European cities and regions have had for nearly fifty years; we have no tapping anything: just get on, get off. Occasionally I'm asked to show my card, even more occasionally with a photo ID.

That is simply untrue. I am not aware of any UK city bus service which doesn't have what you describe. You are talking about season ticket or similar.

First York indeed do have similar. You can buy day tickets (£6), week tickets (£24) or month tickets (£85), allowing unlimited travel. You may need to download their app and purchase those tickets on the app.

This is something else entirely, although it does cap your spending at the £6 per day, £24 per week etc. It does ensure that you never pay more than the least you could have paid for the set of journeys you make (using the same card).

 

[Andy in Germany]

And as far as I can see, there is also no difference in fares for using tap on tap off in York. Not sure why Andy thought it was different?

Because on the occasions I used the Tap on/tap off system, I was charged 1,50 GBP, and when it didn't work they charged me 3.00 GBP. It happened on about every fifth bus.

To be fair, on one occasion I got on free because all I had was a 20 pound note.

Oh, and I also had to pay a 1,50 GBP flat fare for Beautiful Daughter every time.

 

[Andy in Germany]

First York indeed do have similar. You can buy day tickets (£6), week tickets (£24) or month tickets (£85), allowing unlimited travel. You may need to download their app and purchase those tickets on the app.

I'll have to check that, but why make people use the App? Why introduce more complex technology than needed?

The Tap on/tap off system also meant there was a card reader halfway down each bus, which is expensive and makes getting on and off more inconvenient for passengers. It seems silly to make such a complex system that only works on one companies buses, when over here it's been possible to use through ticketing without such complex extra machines for nearly half a century.

 

[PaulSB]

Except it doesn't because when you get off, you're digging around for your phone/card while trying to gather bags and other items to get off the bus. And then trying to wave it under the machine when you really need to concentrate on leaving. And on British buses with only one door, this also means you're doing this as other passengers are trying to get onto the bus...

It's a very complex way of making a worse system than most European cities and regions have had for nearly fifty years; we have no tapping anything: just get on, get off. Occasionally I'm asked to show my card, even more occasionally with a photo ID.

From what I've read each of the objections you've raised, the above, battery discharged, dropped phone etc are user, not system, error.

Have you ever stood behind someone boarding a bus/tram/train who isn't prepared to use the correct payment method? No end of fiddling about in pockets, purses, wallets. Or the people in shop queues suddenly taken by surprise when asked to pay? Or the people who think it's necessary to wave their card around or press it increasingly hard against the reading device? All this delay is created by the user.

The issue I do have with phone payment is the phone can be more difficult to hold and manoeuvre. Google Wallet has introduced two step verification which can be a pain.

The only time I've come across a poorly designed system is, surprisingly, at the very new Coop Live in Manchester. Entry is limited to an app. The system requires the user to place the phone under the scanner which is awkward to access. The scanners need to be upward facing. A say surprisingly because this is a brand new, state of the art venue which is outstanding in every other way.

 

[PaulSB]

They've upped the number of contactless payments permitted before the card has to go in the reader, and the PIN entered. Stands at five for most cards these days.

Still know the number for a card last used 24 years ago.

In my experience it's a lot more than five. I only use cash at the barbershop everywhere else is contactless. I can't recall the last time I had to enter a pin.........it will happen today now. 🤣

 

[Andy in Germany]

From what I've read each of the objections you've raised, the above, battery discharged, dropped phone etc are user, not system, error.

Fair enough, but with a card, I don't have to worry about making any of those errors, or my phone mysteriously refusing to work for no apparent reason, which has also happened.

Have you ever stood behind someone boarding a bus/tram/train who isn't prepared to use the correct payment method?

Not recently, although I did manage to inadvertently create a blockage and cause unnecessary delays to other passengers occasionally in York, when some readers randomly refused my card.

My problem isn't the use of phones per se, it's the unnecessary and forced addition of technology where there are simpler options.

For example, here the majority of people using public transport have some kind of season ticket which is valid on all local public transport; we don't need a debit card or a phone, although it is an option. This means getting on and off buses and trains is much simpler and faster, because no-one needs to tap in and out, and also because there are two doors on buses, so people getting on don't get mixed up with people getting off.

The system in York adds several unnecessary and complicated steps by making a new overly complicated, expensive system, which achieves less than a proven, cheaper system that makes using public transport considerably easier. It then compounded this by not accepting a valid card, so I had to pay more in cash, and block the queue.

And don't even ask about the insanity of the ticket barriers in Manchester Piccadilly...

 

[wiggydiggy]

I'll have to check that, but why make people use the App? Why introduce more complex technology than needed?

The Tap on/tap off system also meant there was a card reader halfway down each bus, which is expensive and makes getting on and off more inconvenient for passengers. It seems silly to make such a complex system that only works on one companies buses, when over here it's been possible to use through ticketing without such complex extra machines for nearly half a century.

Because they don't like to make it easy for us😉

I've got a couple options near me, none are tap on/off. The easiest is card payment when you get on, this normally works for me. Then there are 2 apps. One is for Arriva, and for all operators in West Yorks Inc trains. Both operate the same that you buy the ticket in advance, then scan the QR code when you get on.

The Arriva one is both great and awkward. On the one hand it has real time tracking of buses, great stuff. On the other after buying your ticket you then have to activate it, and once activated it has to be used within a certain time, so there is a bit of stress there that once you activate the ticket your worrying if it will turn up. It also sometimes doesn't scan but the driver normally just waves me on.

The all operators app (WY M-Card) I haven't used, but I understand it works in the same way. I did use the card version for a while and found that great, it was pre-loaded with my ticket. Being able to use all operators and trains/busses was great. Disadvantage was the mind boggling number of tickets available made it confusing to find the best one.